Mark
===

[00:00:00] Speaker: A couple of weeks ago at South by Southwest Dawson, I reconnected with a previous guest, ISRA Nazi, a therapist, clinical strategist, and now the author of a new book, toxic Productivity. We caught up during a lunch break and during our short conversation, ISRA explained the mindset that compels us to chase.

[00:00:18] Relentless Achievement often is a means to cope with the challenging emotions, such as guilt, shame, and feeling left behind. She also shares her personal journey and why she wrote the book. She looks at how society's views on productivity impact our work, our relationships, parenting, and self-image. We also discussed the emotional side of productivity advice and why it's important to recognize our core values to achieve healthy productivity.

[00:00:46] Of course, I had to ask her about the impact of AI on the future of work, mental health and leadership. Israel highlighted both the risks and opportunities that she sees that AI presents and stress the need for thoughtful [00:01:00] guardrails and an intentional use to enhance rather than diminish human value and connection.

[00:01:06] Makes sense. Whether you're grappling with burnout, feeling pressured to constantly perform, or just curious about navigating productivity in the age of ai, this is a conversation that should offer some thoughtful insights and practical advice. If you wanna go further, I'd certainly buy the book. You can get it on her website or on Amazon.

[00:01:26] For now, enjoy the episode.

[00:01:28] Mark: Israel. Great. Great to see you.

[00:01:32] Israa: Yeah. It's been a while

[00:01:33] since we met in person 

[00:01:35] Mark: 2020. In

[00:01:38] New um, 

[00:01:40] a lunch. It was organized by Summit Sea Group, wasn't 

[00:01:44] it? Yes. And by, uh, NAS. 

[00:01:48] Israa: Yep. At,

[00:01:48] Pastis, I think

[00:01:49] in Chelsea,

[00:01:50] Mark: Just before the pandemic. 

[00:01:51] pandemic.

[00:01:51] Right. Before the pandemic. I think 

[00:01:54] going back to that. So it's been five. It's actually, yeah, it's, it's, it's five years. Five 

[00:01:58] Five 

[00:01:58] years. 

[00:01:58] right.

[00:01:59] [00:02:00] So 

[00:02:00] obviously a lot's happened. Mm-hmm. We're here at South by Southwest and this incredible, um, melting pot of serendipity. 

[00:02:07] Um, 

[00:02:08] and I just happened to be walking along the corridor.

[00:02:11] I saw you. I went, wait a minute. And then I saw your book and I put two and two together and thought, wow. So I. Came up to you yesterday, said hi. 

[00:02:20] Yeah. And here 

[00:02:20] we are. 

[00:02:20] I know. 

[00:02:21] I'm 

[00:02:21] excited

[00:02:21] to 

[00:02:21] Israa: chat 

[00:02:22] with you.

[00:02:23] Mark: Let's 

[00:02:23] just dive in. So tell me all about toxic, uh, productivity.

[00:02:28] Israa: Gosh. 

[00:02:29] So Toxic Productivity, which is the title of my book.

[00:02:31] Mm-hmm. Uh, it came out in November last year, and I wrote it over

[00:02:35] the span of two 

[00:02:36] and 

[00:02:36] a half years, 

[00:02:38] and 

[00:02:38] it's essentially 

[00:02:39] an 

[00:02:39] exploration of the mindset that

[00:02:41] so many of us

[00:02:42] have.

[00:02:43] which is 

[00:02:44] the relentless pursuit of 

[00:02:46] achievement 

[00:02:47] and. 

[00:02:47] outcomes as a way to feel good about 

[00:02:49] ourselves, right? And 

[00:02:51] so using 

[00:02:52] productivity as a

[00:02:53] coping tool to avoid 

[00:02:55] difficult emotions like

[00:02:56] guilt 

[00:02:57] or shame, feeling left

[00:02:59] behind in [00:03:00] life.

[00:03:00] All of those

[00:03:01] things that push us to do more, most 

[00:03:04] of the time without

[00:03:05] intention or a disconnect from purpose.

[00:03:08] So the 

[00:03:09] book 

[00:03:09] explores 

[00:03:09] that and offers 

[00:03:11] an alternative to 

[00:03:12] how we can 

[00:03:12] actually build healthy

[00:03:13] productivity so that we don't 

[00:03:15] burn out. 

[00:03:16] Mark: Okay. So what's the genesis of, um, the book? Was it a personal journey or a personal experience?

[00:03:22] Israa: It 

[00:03:23] was definitely my own experience. Um, my own struggle with utilizing

[00:03:28] achievement 

[00:03:28] to 

[00:03:29] feel 

[00:03:29] a sense 

[00:03:29] of connection 

[00:03:30] and belonging. 

[00:03:31] Um, but 

[00:03:32] also like a

[00:03:34] curiosity about 

[00:03:36] the research 

[00:03:36] that exists. 

[00:03:38] Because a lot of 

[00:03:39] the personal development

[00:03:41] and self-growth books, 

[00:03:43] they focus very heavily on behaviors. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:46] Change

[00:03:47] your habits,

[00:03:47] change your behaviors, create these 

[00:03:49] life hacks

[00:03:50] or 

[00:03:50] systems, and 

[00:03:52] you'll be 

[00:03:52] more productive and

[00:03:53] you'll be happier.

[00:03:54] And

[00:03:54] while that's

[00:03:55] true to a certain degree, 

[00:03:57] what

[00:03:57] is more long

[00:03:59] lasting 

[00:03:59] [00:04:00] is emotional 

[00:04:02] and 

[00:04:02] I

[00:04:03] felt that that was

[00:04:04] really missing

[00:04:05] from the discourse at large. That in order to be more 

[00:04:08] productive and 

[00:04:09] healthier and balanced,

[00:04:11] we actually need to 

[00:04:12] know how 

[00:04:13] to manage 

[00:04:13] unresolved 

[00:04:15] So 

[00:04:15] we don't use productivity 

[00:04:16] as a 

[00:04:16] coping

[00:04:17] for the emotions 

[00:04:18] that we 

[00:04:18] don't

[00:04:18] like. Um, so it was my own 

[00:04:20] experience, but it 

[00:04:21] was also that like

[00:04:22] research, um, that

[00:04:25] I felt was missing in 

[00:04:26] like the 

[00:04:27] direct to 

[00:04:28] consumer 

[00:04:28] personal

[00:04:29] development 

[00:04:29] books. Yeah. 

[00:04:32] Mark: And 

[00:04:32] how did you validate that this, this personal experience, it was something that other people. Encountered and feel un felt.

[00:04:39] Israa: I 

[00:04:40] mean, I think that, 

[00:04:41] you 

[00:04:41] know, a really good pulse of 

[00:04:43] what people 

[00:04:44] are feeling 

[00:04:44] is, um, cultural

[00:04:47] essays 

[00:04:48] in so I 

[00:04:50] read a lot and I mean, 

[00:04:52] even if 

[00:04:52] you like,

[00:04:52] just do 

[00:04:53] a quick Google search on burnout, you're gonna 

[00:04:55] get so 

[00:04:56] much 

[00:04:57] content 

[00:04:57] from

[00:04:59] all kinds of 

[00:04:59] [00:05:00] magazines, um, whether they're 

[00:05:01] business or their lifestyle or their pop culture.

[00:05:05] You 

[00:05:05] can 

[00:05:05] see that there is this thread 

[00:05:07] that, you know,

[00:05:08] people are feeling a little bit of disconnection And 

[00:05:10] burnout. And then of 

[00:05:11] course there is validated data that is out there. Like the WHO in 2019, um, said that burnout is

[00:05:18] like 

[00:05:19] a 

[00:05:19] legitimate

[00:05:21] condition 

[00:05:21] that people can experience. So 

[00:05:22] like there is

[00:05:23] like cultural data

[00:05:24] and then there's

[00:05:25] also 

[00:05:25] cultural

[00:05:25] markers. 

[00:05:27] Um, that 

[00:05:27] made me 

[00:05:28] realize that I'm not the only one, but also in 

[00:05:30] just talking to 

[00:05:31] people, I'm a 

[00:05:31] therapist too, so I have a 

[00:05:32] lot

[00:05:32] of 

[00:05:33] clients who feel the same way. Yeah. 

[00:05:34] Mark: Yeah. So that's where you, obviously you're getting a lot of feedback And sense of it. 

[00:05:38] what's the reception been like? 

[00:05:40] Israa: Uh, It's been 

[00:05:40] really 

[00:05:41] good. I think people really 

[00:05:42] resonate with the topic.

[00:05:43] Um, 

[00:05:44] I think 

[00:05:44] what

[00:05:45] has 

[00:05:45] been 

[00:05:45] very good 

[00:05:46] and worked really 

[00:05:47] well is 

[00:05:47] that it's not,

[00:05:48] The book is not just 

[00:05:49] about

[00:05:49] work.

[00:05:50] Mm-hmm.

[00:05:50] It's about how does this mindset

[00:05:53] impact your romantic relationships, your 

[00:05:55] friendships. 

[00:05:56] Uh, 

[00:05:57] you 

[00:05:57] as a

[00:05:57] parent 

[00:05:58] and 

[00:05:59] your self [00:06:00] concept. 

[00:06:00] Mm-hmm. 

[00:06:00] So in 

[00:06:01] that

[00:06:01] way it

[00:06:02] can reach A broader 

[00:06:03] audience. '

[00:06:04] cause it's not 

[00:06:04] just about 

[00:06:05] work. You can 

[00:06:06] definitely apply

[00:06:06] it to leadership 

[00:06:07] and

[00:06:07] workplace, but you can 

[00:06:09] also take 

[00:06:09] it into 

[00:06:09] your own life. So 

[00:06:11] in 

[00:06:11] for that reason, 

[00:06:12] it has 

[00:06:13] been very applicable 

[00:06:14] to a broad range of people. 

[00:06:18] Mark: I mean, I'd like to wanna obviously talk about, um. So everyone's talking here about AI, obviously, and AI has a massive, will have a massive impact on 

[00:06:27] your 

[00:06:28] area of expertise.

[00:06:31] Before 

[00:06:31] we get to that though, presumably the must the, we talk about the cultural uh,

[00:06:37] aspect of, uh, productivity and toxic nature of it.

[00:06:42] How do you envisage this potentially having an impact on

[00:06:45] education as education evolves and the pressure put on children to perform?

[00:06:49] Yeah, because it's in, in a way, it's instilled in you in their age. I mean, I've spoken to a lot of people on the podcast over the years.

[00:06:55] They come

[00:06:55] from very different cultural backgrounds.

[00:06:57] And often if they come from, let's say, an Indian [00:07:00] background or immigrants, the pressure on the children to perform and reach certain levels performance is massive. And that must have an ongoing psychological effect for a lifetime. And it must be. So how do you break out of that cycle?

[00:07:16] Israa: You know, 

[00:07:16] your 

[00:07:16] foundational experiences when 

[00:07:18] you are a child 

[00:07:19] have 

[00:07:19] a huge 

[00:07:20] impact 

[00:07:20] on the 

[00:07:20] way 

[00:07:20] you, 

[00:07:21] uh, connect and 

[00:07:22] relate to yourself 

[00:07:23] and others,

[00:07:25] but 

[00:07:25] it's 

[00:07:25] not 

[00:07:25] your destiny. 

[00:07:26] We 

[00:07:27] get 

[00:07:27] to make

[00:07:27] choices as adults 

[00:07:29] that align with our own 

[00:07:30] values. Mm-hmm.

[00:07:31] So 

[00:07:31] one 

[00:07:31] of the 

[00:07:31] ways 

[00:07:32] to 

[00:07:32] kind 

[00:07:32] of 

[00:07:32] break 

[00:07:32] out of this, 

[00:07:33] you 

[00:07:33] know, 

[00:07:33] conditioning 

[00:07:35] that I even 

[00:07:35] grew up 

[00:07:36] with 

[00:07:37] is 

[00:07:37] to 

[00:07:37] do 

[00:07:38] the, 

[00:07:39] like, the 

[00:07:39] curiosity 

[00:07:40] based 

[00:07:41] work on 

[00:07:41] yourself and 

[00:07:42] understanding 

[00:07:43] what your values.

[00:07:44] are. 

[00:07:44] Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:44] When 

[00:07:45] you 

[00:07:45] are. 

[00:07:46] When you 

[00:07:46] are 

[00:07:46] raised 

[00:07:46] in an environment

[00:07:47] that 

[00:07:47] is

[00:07:47] constantly 

[00:07:48] telling you 

[00:07:48] what you have to do 

[00:07:49] in 

[00:07:50] order to matter,

[00:07:51] Then you never 

[00:07:52] understand what your 

[00:07:53] own values 

[00:07:54] are. And so you mindlessly

[00:07:56] work towards achievements 

[00:07:58] and milestones, whether 

[00:07:59] that's [00:08:00] professional, whether it's

[00:08:00] the kind 

[00:08:00] of person 

[00:08:01] you 

[00:08:01] marry, 

[00:08:02] whether it's 

[00:08:02] the kind of 

[00:08:03] career 

[00:08:03] you pursue, 

[00:08:04] where 

[00:08:04] you live, 

[00:08:05] all of 

[00:08:06] that 

[00:08:06] is 

[00:08:06] predetermined for you.

[00:08:08] Right. 

[00:08:08] And so 

[00:08:09] you 

[00:08:09] have to 

[00:08:09] make the 

[00:08:10] conscientious choice 

[00:08:11] to learn about your 

[00:08:12] own 

[00:08:13] values. 

[00:08:13] And 

[00:08:14] once 

[00:08:14] you can do 

[00:08:14] this value 

[00:08:15] exploration and understand like 

[00:08:17] what your 

[00:08:18] three four core values are, 

[00:08:20] then you can 

[00:08:21] start to 

[00:08:21] make decisions that align

[00:08:23] and reflect 

[00:08:23] your values. 

[00:08:24] And that's 

[00:08:25] what 

[00:08:25] helps 

[00:08:25] you break

[00:08:25] out 

[00:08:26] of 

[00:08:26] toxic 

[00:08:26] productivity.

[00:08:27] Because the opposite of toxic 

[00:08:29] productivity 

[00:08:30] is not

[00:08:30] anti productivity

[00:08:32] it's 

[00:08:32] value-based 

[00:08:34] it's 

[00:08:34] healthier.

[00:08:35] Yeah, 

[00:08:36] Mark: It's really interesting you say you've gotta start with your values 'cause um, since

[00:08:40] I interviewed you originally for the podcast, which 

[00:08:43] I think 

[00:08:43] was 

[00:08:43] about 

[00:08:43] probably 20

[00:08:44] 20, 20 21 Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:45] I've evolved it to

[00:08:47] ask pre. three 

[00:08:48] questions for One is, who are you as 

[00:08:51] a human being?

[00:08:53] or what made you 

[00:08:55] the human you, are? And what are you working

[00:08:56] to achieve 

[00:08:57] before you shuffle off this

[00:08:58] mortal coil? Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:59] So [00:09:00] 

[00:09:00] really framing. And putting pressure on people right at the beginning of the interview to do a self-reflection. Not many people can answer who they are as a human. at very essence of it are your 

[00:09:10] values.

[00:09:10] Yes, 

[00:09:10] absolutely. what you've got there is

[00:09:12] something really interesting. So 

[00:09:14] I, I, yeah, so I'm really looking forward to reading the book and diving deeper into 

[00:09:17] that.

[00:09:18] So

[00:09:20] given 

[00:09:21] that we're now in 

[00:09:22] this 

[00:09:23] rapidly accelerating environment,

[00:09:26] that it's affecting all aspects 

[00:09:28] of life, culture, society, 

[00:09:30] with the 

[00:09:31] impact of ai, which 

[00:09:33] is causing not just, um, a 

[00:09:35] rapid mind shift, a mind 

[00:09:37] shift,

[00:09:38] in how,

[00:09:39] we have to 

[00:09:39] think 

[00:09:40] about our lives,

[00:09:41] and our future roles. 

[00:09:42] creating in many people a bit of

[00:09:44] an 

[00:09:44] existential crisis around 

[00:09:45] how am

[00:09:46] I gonna perform and what am I gonna do when I'm being conditioned?

[00:09:49] This is what 

[00:09:49] I, 

[00:09:49] do, this is how I work, 

[00:09:50] this 

[00:09:51] is how 

[00:09:51] I perform. Mm-hmm. How does that intersect with

[00:09:54] the 

[00:09:54] book you've 

[00:09:55] written, and

[00:09:57] what advice I suppose, would you have for people maybe

[00:09:59] [00:10:00] struggling with,

[00:10:01] you 

[00:10:01] know,

[00:10:02] what the future might 

[00:10:02] be for them, 

[00:10:04] Israa: just 

[00:10:04] in terms 

[00:10:04] of 

[00:10:04] ai?

[00:10:06] Mark: Yeah, and how, because

[00:10:07] before we started recording, you talked 

[00:10:09] about

[00:10:10] product productivity

[00:10:11] in, in, 

[00:10:12] the intersection of ai, is putting a lot of pressure on certainly leadership or just seeing it as a way to increase the 

[00:10:19] productivity. 

[00:10:19] Yeah. 

[00:10:20] Reduce their costs. And guess 

[00:10:21] what 

[00:10:22] happens to be thrown 

[00:10:22] along the wayside? human capital. 

[00:10:25] Yeah. 

[00:10:26] So 

[00:10:27] fear 

[00:10:27] Israa: of 

[00:10:27] being 

[00:10:28] redundant. 

[00:10:28] Exactly. Yeah. In the workplace. 

[00:10:29] Yeah. 

[00:10:30] So 

[00:10:30] I think that, 

[00:10:31] you know, I 

[00:10:31] am like

[00:10:31] always 

[00:10:32] very 

[00:10:33] open-minded

[00:10:33] to

[00:10:34] changing. 

[00:10:35] You know, 

[00:10:35] environments 

[00:10:36] because 

[00:10:36] you 

[00:10:37] can't 

[00:10:37] resist change. 

[00:10:39] Um, 

[00:10:40] but 

[00:10:40] I think we 

[00:10:41] have learned through the intersection of, 

[00:10:43] let's say 

[00:10:43] healthcare 

[00:10:44] and technology, 

[00:10:45] requires 

[00:10:46] a

[00:10:46] lot of

[00:10:47] regulation.

[00:10:48] Yes. And 

[00:10:48] so 

[00:10:49] I 

[00:10:49] would 

[00:10:49] say 

[00:10:49] the same 

[00:10:49] thing with AI 

[00:10:50] and productivity metrics 

[00:10:52] in any 

[00:10:52] industry. 

[00:10:53] Requires a lot of guardrails that, 

[00:10:56] because it's such an 

[00:10:57] early 

[00:10:57] field, 

[00:10:58] it doesn't exist 

[00:10:59] right 

[00:10:59] now, but [00:11:00] as 

[00:11:00] we build 

[00:11:00] systems for it, I think we have to like be aware of building 

[00:11:03] and guardrails 

[00:11:04] as 

[00:11:04] well. that

[00:11:06] AI 

[00:11:06] can be used to 

[00:11:08] remove 

[00:11:09] some 

[00:11:09] of the 

[00:11:10] busy 

[00:11:10] work 

[00:11:11] that 

[00:11:11] we do 

[00:11:12] that

[00:11:12] makes 

[00:11:12] us 

[00:11:13] feel 

[00:11:13] productive, 

[00:11:14] but 

[00:11:14] it's not value based. so 

[00:11:16] that 

[00:11:16] we can actually redirect more energy 

[00:11:18] towards 

[00:11:18] value based work. 

[00:11:20] And So 

[00:11:20] I think like

[00:11:21] using 

[00:11:22] AI Streamline is a 

[00:11:25] better way

[00:11:26] that 

[00:11:26] can 

[00:11:27] help you 

[00:11:27] be more 

[00:11:28] productive 

[00:11:28] as 

[00:11:28] opposed 

[00:11:29] to using 

[00:11:29] it 

[00:11:30] replace 

[00:11:31] the values And, and 

[00:11:33] I 

[00:11:33] think that, you know, 

[00:11:34] different 

[00:11:35] people, different

[00:11:36] stakeholders

[00:11:37] in this, 

[00:11:38] you 

[00:11:38] know, 

[00:11:39] AI background, 

[00:11:41] they 

[00:11:41] have different agendas.

[00:11:43] There 

[00:11:43] are 

[00:11:43] some 

[00:11:43] people 

[00:11:44] who 

[00:11:44] are 

[00:11:44] driven. 

[00:11:45] to 

[00:11:45] reduce 

[00:11:45] human 

[00:11:46] capital. 

[00:11:47] And if 

[00:11:47] that's your 

[00:11:47] goal 

[00:11:48] as 

[00:11:48] an 

[00:11:49] agency 

[00:11:49] or a 

[00:11:49] person 

[00:11:50] or 

[00:11:50] like, 

[00:11:50] you 

[00:11:51] know, 

[00:11:51] um. Then you 

[00:11:53] can 

[00:11:53] do that. 'cause 

[00:11:54] AI 

[00:11:54] can 

[00:11:54] do 

[00:11:55] that. 

[00:11:55] So I think 

[00:11:55] like 

[00:11:55] we need 

[00:11:56] more players in the

[00:11:57] game who are more 

[00:11:58] focused on [00:12:00] leveraging 

[00:12:00] AI 

[00:12:01] to improve and enhance 

[00:12:02] human 

[00:12:02] connection 

[00:12:03] and 

[00:12:03] human 

[00:12:04] productivity as 

[00:12:05] opposed 

[00:12:05] to 

[00:12:05] the 

[00:12:05] ones 

[00:12:05] who 

[00:12:06] are

[00:12:06] only 

[00:12:06] focused 

[00:12:06] on 

[00:12:07] replacing 

[00:12:07] it. 

[00:12:08] So 

[00:12:08] we 

[00:12:08] need 

[00:12:08] to 

[00:12:08] have 

[00:12:08] a 

[00:12:08] diversity of 

[00:12:09] the 

[00:12:09] people 

[00:12:10] who actually 

[00:12:11] are 

[00:12:11] in 

[00:12:11] that 

[00:12:12] industry 

[00:12:13] and 

[00:12:13] the 

[00:12:13] intention 

[00:12:14] that they 

[00:12:14] have 

[00:12:14] needs to be diverse. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:12:18] Do you think 

[00:12:19] Mark: metrics for productivity 

[00:12:20] are gonna change depending 

[00:12:21] on industry?

[00:12:23] Israa: I 

[00:12:23] think so, Yeah. 

[00:12:25] Absolutely. 

[00:12:26] Mark: I mean, 

[00:12:26] I know 

[00:12:26] it's early 

[00:12:27] stage.

[00:12:27] and it's, I think here 

[00:12:29] we're

[00:12:29] always in this 

[00:12:30] almost Petri dish

[00:12:31] of experimentation Mm-hmm. where you go back to the real world

[00:12:34] and still 

[00:12:35] people, our organizations still don't have a policy or 

[00:12:37] have a strategy

[00:12:38] for implementing.

[00:12:39] And if they do.

[00:12:41] it is very much

[00:12:41] slash you know, cut. And where can we drive more efficiency

[00:12:45] and cost cutting.

[00:12:47] But I suppose as we

[00:12:49] start to see, and 

[00:12:51] I've 

[00:12:51] seen a couple 

[00:12:51] of talks 

[00:12:52] I've just talked about the rising water level and how it 

[00:12:54] pushes will force us into

[00:12:56] higher 

[00:12:57] order human 

[00:12:57] function. 

[00:12:59] So as we [00:13:00] have to start to

[00:13:01] Unleash 

[00:13:01] our innate 

[00:13:02] curiosity, our creativity, and our imagination

[00:13:06] in 

[00:13:06] ways to actually do higher order work, 

[00:13:09] arguably 

[00:13:10] it could make us feel more fulfilled as humans rather 

[00:13:12] than less valued, which presumably then if productivity 

[00:13:16] is more about 

[00:13:18] our innate

[00:13:19] uniqueness, our innate,

[00:13:21] our unique characteristics, and that are allowed to flourish, 

[00:13:26] Presumably that would be a good thing.

[00:13:31] Israa: yeah, 

[00:13:32] it 

[00:13:32] would be, 

[00:13:33] I 

[00:13:33] just wanna 

[00:13:33] say 

[00:13:34] that any kind 

[00:13:34] of 

[00:13:34] shift, 

[00:13:35] any

[00:13:35] cultural shift 

[00:13:37] has 

[00:13:37] a 

[00:13:38] loss 

[00:13:38] associated. 

[00:13:39] with 

[00:13:39] it, And 

[00:13:41] I would 

[00:13:41] love 

[00:13:42] for 

[00:13:42] the 

[00:13:42] leaders 

[00:13:43] in 

[00:13:43] this 

[00:13:43] industry 

[00:13:44] to try 

[00:13:44] to mitigate 

[00:13:45] the loss 

[00:13:46] and 

[00:13:46] stay more 

[00:13:46] value 

[00:13:47] driven 

[00:13:48] as much 

[00:13:48] as 

[00:13:48] possible. You 

[00:13:49] know, I 

[00:13:50] often think about the advent 

[00:13:51] of like 

[00:13:52] the, 

[00:13:52] um, 

[00:13:53] like 

[00:13:54] the 

[00:13:54] engine, the

[00:13:55] car engines, 

[00:13:56] right? 

[00:13:56] That 

[00:13:58] demolished 

[00:13:58] the 

[00:13:58] horse drawn [00:14:00] carriage Lots 

[00:14:01] of 

[00:14:01] people lost 

[00:14:02] their jobs,

[00:14:02] Like, you 

[00:14:03] know, 

[00:14:03] like, There 

[00:14:03] was a whole

[00:14:04] infrastructure around horse-drawn carriages. 

[00:14:07] That had to 

[00:14:07] be completely 

[00:14:08] demolished in order 

[00:14:09] to 

[00:14:09] make space 

[00:14:10] for cars.

[00:14:11] Right. 

[00:14:11] And 

[00:14:11] I 

[00:14:11] feel 

[00:14:12] like 

[00:14:12] we're 

[00:14:12] at 

[00:14:13] that 

[00:14:13] kind 

[00:14:13] of 

[00:14:13] pivot Yeah. 

[00:14:14] And, And, 

[00:14:15] so 

[00:14:15] yes, 

[00:14:15] there 

[00:14:16] will 

[00:14:16] be 

[00:14:16] a 

[00:14:16] lot 

[00:14:16] of shifts, 

[00:14:17] but 

[00:14:17] I 

[00:14:17] want 

[00:14:17] us 

[00:14:18] to 

[00:14:18] just 

[00:14:18] be 

[00:14:18] more 

[00:14:18] intentional 

[00:14:19] about mitigating 

[00:14:20] as 

[00:14:20] much 

[00:14:21] risk 

[00:14:21] as 

[00:14:21] possible.

[00:14:23] I 

[00:14:23] think

[00:14:23] a

[00:14:23] lot 

[00:14:23] of 

[00:14:23] times 

[00:14:24] leaders 

[00:14:24] in 

[00:14:24] the 

[00:14:24] industry, and you're 

[00:14:25] seeing 

[00:14:25] this right now,

[00:14:27] are 

[00:14:27] very 

[00:14:27] cavalier 

[00:14:28] about 

[00:14:29] the risk. They're 

[00:14:30] very cavalier about, 

[00:14:31] you

[00:14:31] know what, 

[00:14:31] let's 

[00:14:31] just slash these jobs and put in 

[00:14:33] robots 

[00:14:34] or AI 

[00:14:34] to 

[00:14:35] do it,

[00:14:35] Wow. 

[00:14:36] and 

[00:14:36] can 

[00:14:36] we 

[00:14:36] actually 

[00:14:37] mitigate

[00:14:37] some risk? I

[00:14:38] think 

[00:14:39] that 

[00:14:39] would 

[00:14:39] be 

[00:14:39] an, that, 

[00:14:40] that's 

[00:14:40] a 

[00:14:40] really 

[00:14:41] interesting 

[00:14:41] challenge, 

[00:14:42] that 

[00:14:42] it requires 

[00:14:43] creative 

[00:14:44] thinking. 

[00:14:45] I don't 

[00:14:45] know if everyone's 

[00:14:46] doing that 

[00:14:46] and 

[00:14:47] I 

[00:14:47] mean, I'm 

[00:14:47] in 

[00:14:47] the 

[00:14:47] healthcare 

[00:14:48] space, 

[00:14:48] so I'm seeing the

[00:14:49] implementation of AI 

[00:14:50] in 

[00:14:50] mental 

[00:14:50] health.

[00:14:51] Mm-hmm.

[00:14:51] As a 

[00:14:51] very 

[00:14:52] interesting 

[00:14:53] like 

[00:14:54] thing 

[00:14:54] because there's companies that are 

[00:14:56] building AI

[00:14:57] based 

[00:14:57] therapists. Like if 

[00:14:59] you 

[00:14:59] go 

[00:14:59] into [00:15:00] certain, 

[00:15:00] uh, social 

[00:15:01] media 

[00:15:01] platforms, 

[00:15:02] you 

[00:15:03] can 

[00:15:03] actually find 

[00:15:04] AI 

[00:15:05] based 

[00:15:05] therapists 

[00:15:06] who are 

[00:15:06] built 

[00:15:06] into their 

[00:15:07] messaging. 

[00:15:07] Mark: Oh, Well, I 

[00:15:08] can see, even if you look 

[00:15:09] at the latest 

[00:15:10] release of, 

[00:15:11] growth, um, 

[00:15:12] Elon 

[00:15:12] Musk's, uh, ai, They've got 

[00:15:14] personas in

[00:15:15] there and there's the therapist 

[00:15:16] Yeah. 

[00:15:17] Israa: Yeah. And, 

[00:15:18] and 

[00:15:18] you 

[00:15:18] know, 

[00:15:19] there's 

[00:15:19] a 

[00:15:19] lot 

[00:15:19] of 

[00:15:19] risk 

[00:15:19] associated 

[00:15:20] with that. 

[00:15:21] However, 

[00:15:21] there's 

[00:15:21] a lot 

[00:15:22] of 

[00:15:22] beneficial 

[00:15:22] use cases for AI 

[00:15:24] in

[00:15:24] mental 

[00:15:25] health 

[00:15:25] as 

[00:15:25] well, 

[00:15:25] like 

[00:15:26] for 

[00:15:26] qa, qi, 

[00:15:28] you 

[00:15:28] know, 

[00:15:28] of 

[00:15:29] treatment 

[00:15:29] plans 

[00:15:30] of 

[00:15:30] really 

[00:15:31] like 

[00:15:31] targeted

[00:15:32] treatment recommendations 

[00:15:33] based 

[00:15:34] on 

[00:15:34] the 

[00:15:34] individual's 

[00:15:35] presenting 

[00:15:35] problem, 

[00:15:36] supporting 

[00:15:37] and 

[00:15:37] training 

[00:15:37] early 

[00:15:38] state, 

[00:15:38] early 

[00:15:39] career 

[00:15:39] clinicians.

[00:15:40] Through, 

[00:15:41] you 

[00:15:41] know, 

[00:15:42] the treatment planning 

[00:15:43] and 

[00:15:43] uh,

[00:15:43] symptom 

[00:15:44] identification. Like 

[00:15:45] there's 

[00:15:45] a lot of benefit, 

[00:15:46] but I 

[00:15:46] think 

[00:15:46] we're 

[00:15:46] just 

[00:15:47] kind of 

[00:15:47] jumping 

[00:15:47] to 

[00:15:47] the most 

[00:15:48] obvious, 

[00:15:49] like, 

[00:15:49] here's 

[00:15:49] like 

[00:15:49] a 

[00:15:49] bot 

[00:15:50] therapist, 

[00:15:51] right? 

[00:15:51] To 

[00:15:51] me, 

[00:15:52] that's 

[00:15:52] like 

[00:15:52] the 

[00:15:52] least 

[00:15:52] creative 

[00:15:53] use 

[00:15:54] of 

[00:15:54] this

[00:15:55] technology. 

[00:15:56] Do 

[00:15:56] Mark: you think the, 

[00:15:57] the, like

[00:15:58] obviously the 

[00:15:59] industry 

[00:15:59] is [00:16:00] regulated.

[00:16:00] highly regulated with HIPAA compliance, 

[00:16:03] and

[00:16:04] obviously even if anyone's not familiar with the USA, 

[00:16:07] um, 

[00:16:08] if you're a therapist in New York, you're not licensed to be a therapist in 

[00:16:12] California or in

[00:16:13] Texas. 

[00:16:15] So where, where do you think the industry is or the 

[00:16:18] regulatory bodies are in 

[00:16:19] terms of Are starting Put in place with 

[00:16:23] some form of 

[00:16:24] guidance

[00:16:25] or governance around the rollout of This, as you say, the, the linear thought is 

[00:16:31] bot therapist. Yeah. 

[00:16:32] But there's much 

[00:16:33] more

[00:16:33] And 

[00:16:34] are, 

[00:16:35] are you seeing any examples

[00:16:36] of, 

[00:16:36] uh, 

[00:16:37] are clients, 

[00:16:39] organizations, 

[00:16:41] um,

[00:16:41] clinicians that are racing ahead and others are maybe being held back and there's a disparity between the adoption of the, the technology.

[00:16:49] Israa: Yeah, 

[00:16:49] I think

[00:16:50] there's 

[00:16:50] like

[00:16:50] definitely a 

[00:16:51] huge 

[00:16:51] disparity 

[00:16:52] in 

[00:16:52] the 

[00:16:52] adoption. 

[00:16:52] I 

[00:16:52] think the, 

[00:16:53] you know, the 

[00:16:54] singular private 

[00:16:55] practices or the group

[00:16:57] practices 

[00:16:58] that 

[00:16:58] are 

[00:16:58] not, 

[00:16:58] that tech 

[00:16:59] [00:17:00] enabled are 

[00:17:00] definitely

[00:17:01] not 

[00:17:02] quick 

[00:17:03] to 

[00:17:03] adopt this. They're, 

[00:17:04] they're a 

[00:17:04] little 

[00:17:04] more

[00:17:04] cautious. 

[00:17:05] And then 

[00:17:06] you've 

[00:17:06] got 

[00:17:06] the more venture 

[00:17:07] back. Startup digital

[00:17:09] health 

[00:17:10] spaces 

[00:17:10] that are 

[00:17:10] quickly 

[00:17:11] adopting 

[00:17:11] this. 

[00:17:12] and 

[00:17:12] Mark: the like 

[00:17:13] of these, uh. Better health and like that 

[00:17:15] yeah. 

[00:17:16] Israa: And some people 

[00:17:16] are 

[00:17:17] just 

[00:17:17] slapping on AI as 

[00:17:18] a way 

[00:17:18] to 

[00:17:19] say they 

[00:17:19] also 

[00:17:19] do 

[00:17:19] it, 

[00:17:20] but 

[00:17:20] like, 

[00:17:20] what 

[00:17:20] are 

[00:17:20] they really

[00:17:21] doing? 

[00:17:22] Um, so 

[00:17:22] the 

[00:17:22] regulation 

[00:17:23] has not caught up though, I 

[00:17:24] will 

[00:17:25] say that. 

[00:17:25] And 

[00:17:26] there's 

[00:17:26] a 

[00:17:26] lot 

[00:17:26] of 

[00:17:26] like 

[00:17:26] interesting 

[00:17:27] loopholes that people 

[00:17:28] kind of 

[00:17:28] find. 

[00:17:29] So like, even 

[00:17:29] like 

[00:17:29] what 

[00:17:29] you were 

[00:17:30] talking 

[00:17:30] about, 

[00:17:30] these 

[00:17:30] bot 

[00:17:31] therapists.

[00:17:32] Even though 

[00:17:33] they 

[00:17:33] say 

[00:17:33] like, '

[00:17:34] cause 

[00:17:34] what I experienced 

[00:17:35] in that messaging 

[00:17:36] platform was like, 

[00:17:37] you know, 

[00:17:37] um, 

[00:17:38] a narcissism therapist 

[00:17:40] was the 

[00:17:40] persona. 

[00:17:41] Yeah. 

[00:17:42] But 

[00:17:42] there's a fine print on the bottom 

[00:17:44] that 

[00:17:44] says 

[00:17:44] this 

[00:17:44] is 

[00:17:44] not 

[00:17:45] a 

[00:17:45] therapist, 

[00:17:46] but they advertise 

[00:17:47] as 

[00:17:47] if they 

[00:17:47] are 

[00:17:48] but 

[00:17:49] like 

[00:17:49] deep in the fine

[00:17:50] print 

[00:17:50] is 

[00:17:50] like, 

[00:17:50] so 

[00:17:51] there's 

[00:17:51] ways 

[00:17:51] people 

[00:17:51] are 

[00:17:51] like 

[00:17:52] kind of. 

[00:17:52] skipping 

[00:17:53] over that. 

[00:17:54] But, 

[00:17:54] uh, and I don't, I'm 

[00:17:55] not saying

[00:17:55] that's a good thing, 

[00:17:56] by 

[00:17:56] the 

[00:17:56] way. 

[00:17:57] Um, 

[00:17:57] I 

[00:17:57] was very.

[00:17:59] [00:18:00] Unsettled 

[00:18:00] by 

[00:18:00] that whole

[00:18:01] experience 

[00:18:02] because,

[00:18:03] you 

[00:18:03] know, 

[00:18:03] AI is 

[00:18:04] built 

[00:18:04] on 

[00:18:05] data.

[00:18:05] Data 

[00:18:06] has

[00:18:06] an 

[00:18:06] inherent

[00:18:07] bias in

[00:18:08] it, 

[00:18:08] and so it's not necessarily a

[00:18:09] safe environment for somebody who is 

[00:18:11] struggling 

[00:18:11] with

[00:18:11] mental health. AI 

[00:18:13] based

[00:18:13] mental health 

[00:18:14] services 

[00:18:14] can be very 

[00:18:15] scary 

[00:18:16] for people 

[00:18:16] who have psychosis 

[00:18:18] or 

[00:18:18] who have very 

[00:18:19] severe 

[00:18:19] mental 

[00:18:19] health

[00:18:19] conditions 

[00:18:20] because they 

[00:18:21] can't 

[00:18:21] tell the 

[00:18:21] difference 

[00:18:21] between reality 

[00:18:22] and 

[00:18:22] not 

[00:18:23] So we 

[00:18:23] have to 

[00:18:24] work 

[00:18:24] very cautiously. 

[00:18:25] Um, 

[00:18:26] but 

[00:18:26] the 

[00:18:26] regulation

[00:18:26] is 

[00:18:27] not there yet.

[00:18:28] Mark: Okay. 

[00:18:29] Um,

[00:18:30] so a personal

[00:18:31] question. 

[00:18:31] Israa: Yeah.

[00:18:33] Mark: It started

[00:18:33] out obviously as

[00:18:34] self-reflection. Mm-hmm. You've written 

[00:18:36] the book. 

[00:18:36] Mm-hmm. You're having success 

[00:18:37] with it. People are 

[00:18:38] resonating 

[00:18:39] with it. How has

[00:18:40] it affected your own sense of

[00:18:42] productivity 

[00:18:44] and how is it the, that journey

[00:18:46] you've been on? 

[00:18:47] where would, how would you describe 

[00:18:48] it 

[00:18:48] now? today,

[00:18:49] Israa: I 

[00:18:49] am 

[00:18:50] definitely So much 

[00:18:51] more 

[00:18:51] aware 

[00:18:52] of 

[00:18:52] where 

[00:18:53] I 

[00:18:53] put

[00:18:53] my 

[00:18:53] time 

[00:18:54] and 

[00:18:54] energy 

[00:18:54] now 

[00:18:55] Than 

[00:18:55] I 

[00:18:55] did 

[00:18:56] when 

[00:18:56] I 

[00:18:56] was in my 

[00:18:56] twenties and

[00:18:57] early thirties. Like I'm so much more, [00:19:00] 

[00:19:00] I have so 

[00:19:00] much 

[00:19:00] more discrimination about

[00:19:02] where 

[00:19:02] my 

[00:19:02] energy is going. And 

[00:19:03] interestingly, 

[00:19:04] that 

[00:19:04] has 

[00:19:04] brought 

[00:19:05] me so 

[00:19:05] much 

[00:19:06] more 

[00:19:07] better

[00:19:07] outcome 

[00:19:08] than just 

[00:19:09] casting a 

[00:19:09] wide net, doing 

[00:19:10] everything. Not saying 

[00:19:12] no saying yes, just 

[00:19:13] kind 

[00:19:13] of like.

[00:19:14] Having

[00:19:14] no 

[00:19:15] boundaries 

[00:19:15] and 

[00:19:16] limitations, 

[00:19:17] I 

[00:19:17] think 

[00:19:17] kept me in 

[00:19:18] a 

[00:19:18] state 

[00:19:19] of 

[00:19:19] just under 

[00:19:20] what 

[00:19:20] I 

[00:19:20] wanted.

[00:19:21] And 

[00:19:22] when I, 

[00:19:23] you know, 

[00:19:23] you 

[00:19:23] trim 

[00:19:23] the fat, you refocus your energy, you 

[00:19:26] reprioritize. That requires 

[00:19:28] you to be value-based. 

[00:19:29] it 

[00:19:29] requires 

[00:19:29] you 

[00:19:29] to 

[00:19:29] say no. 

[00:19:30] Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:30] Even 

[00:19:31] when 

[00:19:31] you 

[00:19:31] have 

[00:19:31] the 

[00:19:31] fear 

[00:19:31] of 

[00:19:32] missing out, 

[00:19:32] it 

[00:19:32] requires you to. 

[00:19:34] You 

[00:19:34] know, 

[00:19:35] be more 

[00:19:35] collaborative or

[00:19:36] be very discerning 

[00:19:37] about 

[00:19:38] who 

[00:19:38] you're 

[00:19:38] collaborating 

[00:19:39] with. 

[00:19:39] Like, it 

[00:19:39] just requires so 

[00:19:40] much 

[00:19:40] more 

[00:19:41] and that 

[00:19:42] has 

[00:19:42] actually given 

[00:19:43] me 

[00:19:43] outcomes 

[00:19:44] that are 

[00:19:44] so 

[00:19:45] much 

[00:19:45] more 

[00:19:45] connected 

[00:19:46] to the 

[00:19:46] things 

[00:19:46] that I 

[00:19:46] genuinely 

[00:19:47] really 

[00:19:47] wanna 

[00:19:48] do.

[00:19:48] So 

[00:19:49] I 

[00:19:49] would 

[00:19:49] say that this 

[00:19:49] journey has 

[00:19:50] made me 

[00:19:51] more. 

[00:19:52] like 

[00:19:52] productive 

[00:19:53] in 

[00:19:53] a 

[00:19:53] healthier 

[00:19:54] way. 

[00:19:55] In a more

[00:19:55] streamlined 

[00:19:56] and targeted 

[00:19:56] way. 

[00:19:57] Whereas

[00:19:57] prior I 

[00:19:58] was

[00:19:58] just

[00:19:59] all 

[00:19:59] [00:20:00] the 

[00:20:00] time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:20:01] Mark: Mm. Okay. So, um. 

[00:20:04] People want to get the book 

[00:20:05] they're 

[00:20:05] not here 

[00:20:06] at South 

[00:20:06] by Yeah. 

[00:20:07] Amazon 

[00:20:07] Amazon 

[00:20:08] on 

[00:20:08] Barn, Amazon, 

[00:20:09] Israa: Barnes 

[00:20:09] and 

[00:20:09] Noble.

[00:20:11] I think 

[00:20:11] it's 

[00:20:11] on Target 

[00:20:12] and 

[00:20:12] Walmart 

[00:20:12] as well. 

[00:20:13] Um, 

[00:20:14] and 

[00:20:14] then 

[00:20:14] always 

[00:20:15] check 

[00:20:15] out 

[00:20:15] your 

[00:20:15] indie 

[00:20:15] bookshop 

[00:20:16] Mark: and 

[00:20:16] also 

[00:20:16] the 

[00:20:17] only. 

[00:20:17] Israa: Yeah, 

[00:20:18] there 

[00:20:18] is a, 

[00:20:19] I 

[00:20:19] think 

[00:20:19] it's 

[00:20:19] on 

[00:20:19] Kindle 

[00:20:20] And Audible. I 

[00:20:21] am narrating

[00:20:22] it. 

[00:20:23] That 

[00:20:23] must 

[00:20:23] Mark: have 

[00:20:24] Israa: It 

[00:20:24] was 

[00:20:24] really 

[00:20:24] fun. 

[00:20:25] Yeah. 

[00:20:25] I 

[00:20:25] loved 

[00:20:26] it. 

[00:20:26] I had 

[00:20:26] to 

[00:20:26] audition. 

[00:20:27] I 

[00:20:27] did 

[00:20:27] three auditions 

[00:20:28] to be 

[00:20:28] the 

[00:20:29] narrator.

[00:20:30] Um, 

[00:20:30] and 

[00:20:31] I, 

[00:20:32] I, I got 

[00:20:32] it 

[00:20:33] at 

[00:20:33] the 

[00:20:33] end 

[00:20:33] and 

[00:20:33] it? 

[00:20:34] was 

[00:20:34] like 

[00:20:34] two 

[00:20:34] days in a 

[00:20:35] studio. 

[00:20:35] It 

[00:20:35] was really fun. Uhhuh. 

[00:20:37] Yeah, I 

[00:20:37] had 

[00:20:37] a really 

[00:20:37] great

[00:20:38] time. 

[00:20:39] Mark: Oh, you 

[00:20:39] obviously went through a sort, a productivity curve to Maybe, maybe that's your next, uh, phase of your 

[00:20:44] career. 

[00:20:45] Yeah. 

[00:20:45] Israa: Maybe, 

[00:20:46] you 

[00:20:46] know, 

[00:20:46] I'm excited about what's gonna 

[00:20:47] come. Uh, 

[00:20:48] Mark: So what comes next?

[00:20:49] Israa: Uh, 

[00:20:49] well, right 

[00:20:50] now 

[00:20:50] I 

[00:20:50] am just 

[00:20:51] kind 

[00:20:52] of 

[00:20:52] thinking 

[00:20:52] through a 

[00:20:53] couple of different 

[00:20:53] ideas 

[00:20:54] about where I really,

[00:20:55] wanna put 

[00:20:55] my 

[00:20:55] time 

[00:20:56] because writing a 

[00:20:56] book 

[00:20:57] is 

[00:20:57] very involved. 

[00:20:58] Um, 

[00:20:58] so 

[00:20:58] I 

[00:20:58] wanna kind 

[00:20:59] of like 

[00:20:59] [00:21:00] really see 

[00:21:00] what 

[00:21:01] I 

[00:21:01] would 

[00:21:01] like 

[00:21:01] to 

[00:21:02] Dedicate 

[00:21:02] the 

[00:21:02] next

[00:21:03] two 

[00:21:03] years 

[00:21:03] in 

[00:21:03] terms 

[00:21:03] of 

[00:21:04] writing. 

[00:21:05] Um, 

[00:21:05] and then 

[00:21:05] I 

[00:21:06] am also 

[00:21:06] working 

[00:21:06] at 

[00:21:07] a digital 

[00:21:07] health 

[00:21:08] company 

[00:21:08] for 

[00:21:09] Asian It's 

[00:21:10] a 

[00:21:10] therapy coaching 

[00:21:12] blended

[00:21:12] tech-enabled service 

[00:21:14] called 

[00:21:14] Anise Health. 

[00:21:15] Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:15] Yeah. And 

[00:21:16] I 

[00:21:16] do 

[00:21:16] clinical 

[00:21:16] strategy 

[00:21:17] and operations 

[00:21:18] because 

[00:21:18] I'm very

[00:21:19] passionate 

[00:21:20] about, 

[00:21:20] uh, 

[00:21:20] BIPOC 

[00:21:21] mental 

[00:21:21] Health Services. 

[00:21:22] Mark: Okay. 

[00:21:23] And 

[00:21:23] then

[00:21:23] can,

[00:21:23] can, um, 

[00:21:24] are you still available for like hire for doing 

[00:21:26] speaking gigs or, 

[00:21:28] gosh, 

[00:21:28] Israa: yes. 

[00:21:28] Thank 

[00:21:28] you 

[00:21:29] for asking. 

[00:21:29] Um, that is something that I hope 

[00:21:31] to do 

[00:21:31] more

[00:21:31] of and I've done 

[00:21:32] a lot this 

[00:21:33] year already. 

[00:21:34] Um, 

[00:21:34] but conferences, 

[00:21:35] I 

[00:21:36] do 

[00:21:36] a 

[00:21:36] lot 

[00:21:36] of

[00:21:36] corporate 

[00:21:37] speaking, 

[00:21:37] uh, 

[00:21:38] for 

[00:21:38] keynotes 

[00:21:38] and 

[00:21:39] then 

[00:21:39] also 

[00:21:40] very

[00:21:40] focused, 

[00:21:41] um, 

[00:21:42] like 

[00:21:42] workshops 

[00:21:43] and 

[00:21:43] seminars. So for 

[00:21:45] ERGs 

[00:21:46] at corporates 

[00:21:47] for

[00:21:47] management 

[00:21:48] training on 

[00:21:49] emotionally

[00:21:49] intelligent 

[00:21:50] leadership 

[00:21:51] and 

[00:21:51] how

[00:21:51] to 

[00:21:51] kind of 

[00:21:51] like

[00:21:52] bring 

[00:21:52] this 

[00:21:52] message 

[00:21:52] of 

[00:21:53] healthy productivity

[00:21:54] to the 

[00:21:54] workplace. I 

[00:21:55] think 

[00:21:55] has 

[00:21:55] been 

[00:21:56] an 

[00:21:56] enormously fun 

[00:21:57] part 

[00:21:58] of my 

[00:21:58] job so 

[00:21:59] far. 

[00:21:59] [00:22:00] Um, 

[00:22:00] and 

[00:22:00] I 

[00:22:00] will be doing 

[00:22:00] more of 

[00:22:01] that 

[00:22:01] and 

[00:22:01] I 

[00:22:01] hope to 

[00:22:02] Mark: 'cause I think that I've got a 

[00:22:04] friend in

[00:22:04] London, we've 

[00:22:05] been speaking a lot.

[00:22:06] She, she 

[00:22:06] used to be head 

[00:22:07] of, um, uh, 

[00:22:09] uh, for a 

[00:22:10] large

[00:22:11] agency network in Asia.

[00:22:12] Mm-hmm. Um. uh, 

[00:22:14] Okay. 

[00:22:15] And

[00:22:15] she was head of 

[00:22:16] talent.

[00:22:17] She's 

[00:22:18] now trying 

[00:22:19] to work out what 

[00:22:19] she's gonna do now she's 

[00:22:20] back in London, 

[00:22:21] uh, the rest of her career. And one 

[00:22:23] of 

[00:22:23] the things 

[00:22:23] she's, and I've

[00:22:24] been 

[00:22:25] coaching her on AI

[00:22:26] I've been doing love that myself, 

[00:22:28] and she's come to the realization that 

[00:22:30] employee 

[00:22:30] engagement is a massive area of opportunity. Um, in the coming years, especially as organizations start.

[00:22:38] to adopt, um, ai. Mm-hmm. Um. In different facets. And I suppose that 

[00:22:44] what 

[00:22:44] you've, what 

[00:22:45] you're doing 

[00:22:45] talking about healthy productivity 

[00:22:47] is an essential

[00:22:48] part of ensuring 

[00:22:50] people you have good employee engagement Yeah.

[00:22:52] And have purpose 

[00:22:53] in your 

[00:22:53] life. So 

[00:22:54] I might 

[00:22:55] connect you 

[00:22:55] with our, just 

[00:22:56] to 

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:56] Be in conversation. I, 

[00:22:57] but if organizations that are[00:23:00] 

[00:23:00] acutely aware 

[00:23:02] fear that a lot 

[00:23:03] of people 

[00:23:04] are feeling, and it, 

[00:23:05] this is 

[00:23:06] quite visceral at 

[00:23:07] the moment. It's not been, it hangs under the surface. 

[00:23:10] I think good

[00:23:10] leaders are aware 

[00:23:13] If they wanna reach out to

[00:23:14] you, it'd be

[00:23:14] a perfect person to 

[00:23:15] come to 'em and guide them through

[00:23:18] a framework 

[00:23:19] for

[00:23:19] bringing about healthy 

[00:23:20] product. Yeah. 

[00:23:21] Yeah. How do they reach out

[00:23:22] to you?

[00:23:22] Israa: The best 

[00:23:23] way to 

[00:23:23] reach 

[00:23:23] out 

[00:23:23] to me 

[00:23:24] is on my 

[00:23:24] website. It's my

[00:23:25] full name, isra naser.com. Uh, 

[00:23:28] or 

[00:23:28] if 

[00:23:28] you just look up 

[00:23:28] toxic productivity, 

[00:23:30] I 

[00:23:30] usually 

[00:23:30] show up. Uh, 

[00:23:32] so 

[00:23:32] there's a 

[00:23:32] contact form 

[00:23:33] there. 

[00:23:33] You 

[00:23:33] can 

[00:23:33] send 

[00:23:34] me 

[00:23:34] a message. And 

[00:23:34] I 

[00:23:34] do 

[00:23:35] think 

[00:23:35] that, 

[00:23:35] you 

[00:23:36] know,

[00:23:36] anytime 

[00:23:36] there's 

[00:23:37] a flux 

[00:23:38] society, 

[00:23:39] uh, 

[00:23:40] and 

[00:23:40] leaders 

[00:23:40] are not 

[00:23:40] just 

[00:23:41] leaders 

[00:23:41] by 

[00:23:41] title, 

[00:23:42] right?

[00:23:42] Like 

[00:23:42] anybody 

[00:23:43] can be 

[00:23:43] a 

[00:23:43] leader 

[00:23:44] in 

[00:23:44] their 

[00:23:44] organization, 

[00:23:44] if they 

[00:23:45] embody 

[00:23:45] the 

[00:23:45] values 

[00:23:46] and 

[00:23:46] the 

[00:23:46] core of

[00:23:48] supporting 

[00:23:49] the 

[00:23:49] their 

[00:23:49] peers.

[00:23:50] Um, 

[00:23:51] and 

[00:23:51] it, 

[00:23:51] it really 

[00:23:51] does 

[00:23:52] require 

[00:23:53] leaders to 

[00:23:54] rise up 

[00:23:55] and 

[00:23:56] set the stage 

[00:23:57] in a.

[00:23:58] very uncertain 

[00:23:59] Mark: [00:24:00] That's a Great way to 

[00:24:00] finish it. Yeah. And that was something, what you just said, there was 

[00:24:02] something that 

[00:24:03] was 

[00:24:03] echoed by that last talk. I was in with Ian b. 

[00:24:05] Croft. Mm-hmm. Um, 

[00:24:07] very 

[00:24:07] much about leaders, It's not about rules and responsibilities.

[00:24:10] Now it's about 

[00:24:10] the people that step forward. Yeah. 

[00:24:12] So I 

[00:24:12] think, yeah, I'm 

[00:24:13] looking forward to 

[00:24:14] hearing 

[00:24:15] the next phase 

[00:24:16] of your 

[00:24:16] journey. 

[00:24:16] Thank 

[00:24:16] you. So 

[00:24:17] it's 

[00:24:17] fantastic. 

[00:24:17] Israa: Yeah. 

[00:24:18] Thanks for 

[00:24:18] chatting 

[00:24:18] with 

[00:24:19] me. 

[00:24:19] This 

[00:24:19] was so 

[00:24:19] lovely. 

[00:24:19] Yeah. And 

[00:24:19] Mark: enjoy the rest of Phi 

[00:24:20] Southwest. 

[00:24:21] Israa: Thanks. 

[00:24:21] You 

[00:24:21] too. 

[00:24:22] Mark: Cool. 

[00:24:23] [00:25:00] Right. 

[00:25:22] Okay, that's all for now, folks. Now here's my ask of you. Please follow this podcast on Apple or Spotify or whatever player you use. Also, please subscribe to our new random Collisions newsletter. We really are working to build a global community of action takers, action engines of people that really care about the problems that need solving.

[00:25:41] Thank you very much. We'll see you next time.