mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301
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[00:00:00] Speaker: So I think if you ask me about the roles of creativity and creative agencies, I think that's becoming fundamentally more important than ever in the world of AI. We have a whole course at Pratt that is called the human AI relationship. And one of the things we're teaching about there is the whole notion of thinking methods and how to think differently.

[00:00:23] So we talk a lot about moving from design thinking to thinking design. Right. And that notion of having different methods. So I think creativity and creative agencies, we will probably see more of them. I think it's, it's going to be a lot of change coming in, in for the agency world. And I think a lot of this will be positive and a lot of this will probably get us more back to the core of what agencies are, creativity and being smart and intelligent about it.

[00:00:50] External Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera-1: My guest this week is Dominic Heinrich, a visionary working at the intersection of design, AI technology and human experience. Uh, school founder of the [00:01:00] creative AI academy and faculty member at the Pratt Institute. He's also the head of global design at the Coca-Cola company. Don really brings a unique perspective on how AI is shaping creativity and innovation. 

[00:01:13] Dom's journey is also fascinating from his early childhood in Germany drawing maps that would manifest into his future agency network to driving innovation at McCann and MRAM in New York. To forming the creative AI academy Dom's become one of the most respected and influential voices in AI and design. Well, I loved about this conversation was how Dom emphasized the importance. Of remaining curious, authentic, and most importantly human. 

[00:01:41] In an increasingly AI driven world. We covered everything from his early days as an entrepreneur and agency owner, to his current mission of helping organizations and individuals navigate the transformation that AI is bringing to creativity and creative work. This is more than a discussion about technology. It's a [00:02:00] deeper reflection on how we can all become better humans in an AI enhance future. Now over to Dom. 

[00:02:07] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Dom, welcome to the Impossible Network.

[00:02:09] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Uh, thanks for having me, Mark. Excited to be here. 

[00:02:12] 

[00:02:12] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: So, shall we crack on?

[00:02:13] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: We can crack on. Yeah. We, uh, just one thing I need to. tell you before we get started, 

[00:02:18] anything I say is basically, uh, my personal opinion and, I just need to, need to make sure that we, that we cover that a little bit.

[00:02:27] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: So, let's jump in with the first big question. Who are you, Dom, as a human being?

[00:02:32] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Yeah, that's a good one, Mark. Um, I would, 

[00:02:37] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Particularly in this world, particularly in this world of ai, as we all, uh, evolve into machine brain

[00:02:42] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: I think there is probably a couple of people out there who think I'm an AI sometimes, because I think I can come across quite cold, but the true story about being human is that you sometimes protect yourself, and so my coldness is [00:03:00] just me being a little bit insecure sometimes. Like all of us, probably.

[00:03:06] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: I know we, we always, um, fall into our own little cultural stereotypes. Me being Scottish and people say, oh, you're from Scotland. You must be like this. Do you get that with being German?

[00:03:15] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Uh, since you had Tony in the podcast, Tony would tell you that I'm over emphasized the German part, um, by saying it. And then, um, he, he always refers to saying, no, no, no, don't, I don't think it's German. It's, it's you. Um, yeah, I get it sometimes. I think the, I'm not very German anymore and from my perspective compared to probably some of my.

[00:03:39] German fellows, but there are certain, certain things that are very typical German, right? It's, uh, I think I dialed them down a little bit in 10 years living in the U S I'm not sure how this is for you.

[00:03:52] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: happens to all of us. Yeah, definitely. Um, the second big question is, who or what made you. The human [00:04:00] that you are.

[00:04:01] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: I would say challenges and mistakes. If I'm honest with you, Mark, um, I would say we'd be going right. This is very German going right in a deep conversation. Um, I would say. The tough, tough things I experienced, um, in my work life that made me who I am today. I think the mistakes I did, um, many, um, the people I worked with, um, the, the things I tried, right.

[00:04:33] It's like innovation is a lot about doing things that nobody has done before. So it's always a little bit of a harder challenge. And you learn along the way and I think that's the that's the beautiful part of life that we're constantly learning and Um constantly experiencing new things and they make us better every day I think one of the things that I'm, i'm really cautious about and [00:05:00] I think I learned from my mom is being self reflective and sometimes a little bit too tough on myself, my executive coach would say, Stella.

[00:05:10] Um, but I think it is, um, it's a part of it, right? And being sometimes unsatisfied with yourself in a healthy way and saying, okay, what can I do better? And that makes you, um, hopefully ultimately better every day. 

[00:05:26] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: when you start to talk about innovation and the intersection and innovation and creativity, it's got to be fueled by curiosity.

[00:05:33] So where did that curiosity come from? Was it innate or was it something that was nurtured?

[00:05:38] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: I think that I've, I've born that way, probably. Um, I always was curious. Um, probably my parents would say nosy, um, Tony as well. Mark. Uh, I think I was always curious, but I also have an ability to, I think in patterns, which is very unusual for creative people. [00:06:00] Um, so. I'm not a storyteller that that's I think there's other people who do that in a better way my my brain and my creativity goes in patterns and so I see things and they inspire me and I have a colleague um at coca cola and she always says your brain jumps in an incredible way, but When you explain it, it makes so much sense and I think that's what what a little bit of my I see something and I have immediately You Making connections and connect the dots.

[00:06:31] And I think that that kind of was always my way of living. And I did this as a child already and took Lego bricks and started cutting them and heating them up and kind of bent them so that I can form a formal one car out of them because at that time that didn't exist at Lego. So I think it was always a little bit of my, my own imagination.

[00:06:57] Um, excitement about things, trying things out in a [00:07:00] new way. 

[00:07:01] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: when you talk about imagination and innovation, and you've got that sort of, uh, that imagination as a child, when you start to start to get interested in innovation, you talk about making mistakes. I know you had your own agency.

[00:07:16] When you set out, did you set out to focus on innovation? And made mistakes in that, in those early years. And where was your imagination taking you? At that point? Because you must have had a goal, a vision, you must have been imagining the grand future.

[00:07:33] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Um, yeah, actually there's a map that I was, that I drew when I was maybe 10, um, where I built my, my company, um, my global company network. what was interesting is I was at that time already thinking about science and experiences and technology and. Making an agency that is all connected, and that was in the 90s, right?

[00:07:59] Early 90s. [00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] And I didn't, at that point, I didn't realize that it was just my imagination. And it's funny because I called the agency, in the very early years, in the first two years, I called it DOEI. So D O E I. And it is basically set together out of Dominic and Heinrich, my first and last name. And it is basically set together out of Dominic and Heinrich, my first and last name.

[00:08:22] And I did it purposely because that's the, that was the drawing 19, 1991 or something.

[00:08:29] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Yeah. 

[00:08:30] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: um, so to answer your question, I think when I was set out, I was like, wanted to build a global agency that works differently, that is driven by experiences and that word didn't exist in the early 2000s when I started it, right.

[00:08:45] But the work we've done as a, as a, as an agency in that time was very experiential, very, um, experience driven, very digital meets physical. and it was, it just felt super natural to me and it felt like, wow, the world is [00:09:00] digital and physical. This needs to go seamless. We, we still not there yet, but that was driving me in a way.

[00:09:06] And that was always my ambition. But at that time there wasn't. The big money was made in that area. So we had to do a lot of traditional advertising work.

[00:09:16] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: just two things, one, as you're talking about the map, I interviewed Debbie Millman, I don't know if you know Debbie, who runs, um, the school of, the SVA, School of Design, uh, Branding,

[00:09:26] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Never met her, but

[00:09:27] then the name, And Debbie said, and Debbie has the Branding Matters podcast, but she, when I interviewed her, she talked about how, when she was a kid, she used to draw and she drew all these brand images, um, of Lays and of, um, uh, I can't remember, there were two or three brands that she drew on a city street in New York.

[00:09:49] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: And she said they became the manifestation of her life that when she started then becoming the brand designer for Lays. Chips and then, all the other amazing brands that she's worked on, but they were [00:10:00] all in her drawing, which she did when she was age nine, similar to you and she's still got it and she looks at it and goes, it was my future self that I was drawing in a city in New York on sixth Avenue and these vans with all the brands logos on them.

[00:10:15] It's I would love to see them because it's probably fascinating. I think a lot of creative people are driven by their imagination as kids. Um, it's funny because if you, if you asked me when I was probably eight or so, what I want to be, um, there was only two jobs, um, race car driver, um, wasn't good enough for that.

[00:10:35] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Um, and the second one was, um, director of a bank. And I can't tell you why I thought that because my whole life was very creative and everything I've done as a child was very creative, but I thought bank director of a bank would be a good job.

[00:10:52] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Wow. Well, thankfully, you didn't go down that route.

[00:10:55] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: I studied it, I studied finance at the end. [00:11:00] Yeah, Yeah. that was a big one. Didn't go down well, I can tell you that.

[00:11:06] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: right. Well, let's, uh, in the interest of trying to crack on, so you, you entered Advertise, you ended up in New York. What was the evolution to go from those early mistakes in Germany to ending up working for agencies in New York City?

[00:11:19] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: think it was always my, my dream to be in New York, so I tried to open my own agency here, which didn't work out. too naive, too young. Then I sold my agency to a bigger organization, um, that, um, that, um, That, that went bankrupt two years later under my watch. And so that was probably, I always call it my, my, my biggest and my best mistake ever, because it actually got me out of, in, in my, in my very late twenties, early thirties, it got me out of this entrepreneurship, which I think I wasn't fitting in, in a way.

[00:11:57] And, uh, worked two years [00:12:00] for a smaller agency in Germany. Um, it's, it's actually the first agency, um, owned and opened by a woman in the, in the, in the fifties. And so I worked with them, uh, got them into being the top 30, one of the top 30 agencies in Germany from a creative standpoint, and then McCann reached out.

[00:12:19] And my, my negotiations with McCann were purposely thinking about, you know, Okay, if I take this job and I have to go to Frankfurt, which was for somebody born in Munich, Bavaria, it's kind of a big deal. no offense against everybody in Frankfurt. Um, but yeah, moving from the mountains into a city that's probably more, more Americanized than any other city in Germany was a, was a big deal at that time.

[00:12:46] And, um, I did this on purpose to see if I can use my pen as a springboard. To go to, to New York. And then luckily I, I was very fortunate enough to drop [00:13:00] Riley was the one who, had a conversation with me and, and was, was willing to give me a chance to come to New York. And Kate McNevin, who was at that time, I think the chief operating officer of MRM McCann, they both were like, okay, let's make this work, uh, and get you over there.

[00:13:16] And that was just after three years being in Frankfurt at McCann.

[00:13:20] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Very cool.

[00:13:22] So you were, you were an early advocate, um, or using, um, AI or at the time it was referred to as machine learning, well before.

[00:13:29] uh, the Google team developed transformers that led to the evolution of GPT 1 by OpenAI. What was it that, um, led you to that realization? There was an opportunity to explore creativity through the application of that technology.

[00:13:45] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: I'm still processing what you just said, Mark. Um, never compared myself with Google and transformers. Um, I think my dad is an engineer, um, by trade. And so for me, technology [00:14:00] was always something very simple to access. So I think I always thought about how can we solve problems as a design mindset? How can we solve problems in the world and how can technology help us to solve them?

[00:14:12] And one of the first projects I did, I think, uh, back in 2012 or 2013, The solution was very simple as saying you apply machine learning to it and you can calculate things and that, um, leads to the solution. And so it wasn't, it wasn't something purposefully chosen. I wish I could say that, right. And I wish I could claim that, but it was, it was just naturally the best way of, of doing things.

[00:14:42] I think we were, with the team in Frankfurt. Um, with Martin and Martin Bela, the chief creative officer and Mark, uh, my creative partner, the first ones who developed, uh, before Amazon actually, uh, developed, um, a system that allowed you to actually [00:15:00] detect coughing and sneezing accurately. And it was 2013, 14, when, when we built that, but the, the approach was not used machine learning.

[00:15:09] So the approach was, Hey, can we detect that? This Is it possible to build a system that allows you to detect that, analyze the data, understand the data? Very, very basic in the, in the very nice, maybe in the thinking as well. I wish I could tell you there was like this magic 

[00:15:28] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: know, 

[00:15:28] but it's, but in a way, but in a way that is just the very nature of innovation, how you stumble across things. Because one of the questions I'm going to ask you was about how serendipity played a role in your journey. And that sounds very serendipitous of you stumbling across that.

[00:15:44] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: yeah, maybe serendipity. I mean, I never saw it. I'm probably more of a planner than I appear. I have, um, It's a funny story about me, and I kind of reveal a little bit the truth, Mark. [00:16:00] Um, I always, I sit somewhere, I, in a meeting, I hear something and my mind goes, Well, we could actually, we should be able to detect, um, coughing and sneezing by using machines and machine learning.

[00:16:16] And My usual reaction in a meeting is because I'm so ashamed of the thought is I say, I've read somewhere that you can detect coughing and sneezing. Everybody's like, Oh, wow. Can you find this article? And then I have to go and it's like, Ooh, cover up my lie in that way. Right. But, in 99 percent of the cases, I'm right.

[00:16:37] And I find something and, uh, it was about a color changing car. And I was like, Hmm, there must be a way of. Making paint that is changing the color. And I actually found a professor at university of California who actually invented that, just two years prior. So I think it's just my natural, um, Gift, um, my, my superpower, maybe that I'm [00:17:00] having this kind of set 6 cents or 7 cents or whatever you want to call it, that I wouldn't, maybe it's serendipity, but maybe it's also just, um, Having, um, A good understanding that in this world is nothing is impossible if you want it. 

[00:17:15] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: do you know the writer journalist Paki McCormack?

[00:17:18] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: I don't. Maybe,

[00:17:22] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: thing called the Science Fiction Database, and he's gone back through time and created a database. Essentially, it's a very big Excel database. chart, spreadsheet, uh, of all the science fiction novels written in, through history, and when inventions were first written about, and when they became reality, and the ones that haven't yet become reality, of what, whether it be detecting sneezing, or whatever.

[00:17:47] One of the great ones is, when was the first time a search engine was ever written about? 

[00:17:51] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: probably 56 years ago? My, that's not enough for me.

[00:17:58] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: 1742 in [00:18:00] Gulliver's Travels.

[00:18:01] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Unbelievable.

[00:18:03] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Yeah, I know, but you like it, I'll send you a link to the

[00:18:06] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Yeah, please,

[00:18:06] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: good. Yeah, it's highly entertaining. good for innovation sessions, by the way. Um, a

[00:18:12] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: it.

[00:18:13] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Right, third big question. same question I asked Tony. What are you working to achieve before you shuffle off this mortal coil?

[00:18:20] Long way to go, of

[00:18:21] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: What did Tony answer? Don't remember.

[00:18:24] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: I can't remember how to go back. It opened up the conversation for the rest of the podcast around the work you're obviously doing

[00:18:30] around with Together. So, have to listen. again. Wow. I think in the last two years, I kind of got to a place where I'm really, really happy what I accomplished and achieved and that it took me. And actually I'm kind of, um, appreciating that moment in my life. Because I feel like I was always hustling and trying to reach the next thing and to reach the next thing.

[00:18:55] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: And I'm in, in this phase at the moment, at least where I feel, very [00:19:00] fortunate what I'm allowed to do, right. That I'm having this role at Coca Cola, having, uh, be the co founder of Creative AI Academy with Tony, teaching at Pratt, doing all these things I'm doing at the moment is, is perfect, right.

[00:19:13] It's, it sounds busy, but it is. It is really I I enjoy every moment i'm doing things and so I think this is a little bit of a moment where i'm Just being in the moment and I think I don't want to look too much into what I want to accomplish in life 

[00:19:30] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: what's the intersection between those three roles? I mean, you're, you're head of global design at Coca Cola. You're a partner and co founder of the Creative AI Academy and you're teaching at Pratt. All the intersection where AI

[00:19:46] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: And design

[00:19:47] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: is touching people's life and design. What's, what's the, The glue between all three roles, a similarity of what impact would you say you're having on the different, audiences or [00:20:00] people that you're engaging with?

[00:20:01] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: I would say the If we start with the, with, with the one that happens in the evenings, usually twice a week, um, which is, which is Pratt. I think Pratt is just fantastic to meet talent and people, um, who just starting to discover what AI can do in design. And it is a great learning, right? It is something that inspires me.

[00:20:26] And that I love to also share what I've, Learned and how I think about it. And I, I try to humanize it a lot because I feel like we, we over indexing on technology. And that brings me to my role at Coca Cola. I think my job there is how can we drive design consistency? How do we see this from a human perspective, right?

[00:20:49] And serving, I think, is it 8 billion servings a day as Coca Cola? It's kind of crazy if you think about it. And so the question is, how [00:21:00] can we use AI in a, in a way that is, intelligent, but also humanized and, um, make sure that the design is ethical and responsible. So it's, it's really fun because I, I touch all things, I touch the things that go out in the world.

[00:21:15] I touch the things that help us driving design consistency at scale and working with large organizations like Adobe, uh, or open AI or Microsoft. So I think this is. It's just fantastic to, um, have these, these interactions and have these possibilities. And then, um, not making Tony too much jealous, talking about the other things.

[00:21:38] Um, creative AI is, is a little bit the baby that Tony and I founded. It's also kind of the, Tony is perfect in running the company. And I think my job and my role is, um, Being a little bit more out in the world, um, talking about it, um, setting a point of view on it and, um, working a lot with [00:22:00] Tony on, Hey, what's the products we are offering?

[00:22:02] What should we offer? Are we doing just a switch of? Just prompt design to, hey, agents building, right. And agents becoming such a big topic and custom GPTs and, and then the leadership part, the leadership part is where I'm very often then do the workshops myself, um, with Tony, sometimes with Stalas Ireno, who's part of it, where we really go in and talk with leaders, um, and help them to Um, be maybe not so much driven by the media, coverage that talks about efficiencies.

[00:22:33] And, um, and I think that's interesting, right? Because we, we, we see three waves of, of technology always. And I think we, we are in this wave of, more efficiency, reducing costs. That's the first wave everybody

[00:22:47] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: The whole productivity.

[00:22:48] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: And productivity. And then everybody realizes in the second wave, Ooh, that maybe that doesn't work that way.

[00:22:54] And maybe, yes, you gain, but. The quality goes down if you don't pay attention to it. So [00:23:00] that's then the second wave. And I think that the most interesting one will be the third wave when really new business models and transformations are happening. I'm, I'm, I can't wait to reach that point because I think that's going to be the most interesting one.

[00:23:12] And also, I think that will be the one where we all realized that AI is just an infrastructure like electricity is, and it is something that's around us, but it is, it is not driving our conversations.

[00:23:25] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: when you talk about design, Consistency in design. How is that affecting or just your observation? How that, what the ramification is going to be on creative agencies work. I'm not just talking about Coca Cola.

[00:23:37] I'm talking about brands generally, because what you say, when you partner with likes of Adobe and the products they have in Firefly and they're rolling out all these, whether it's, you know, some organizations will work with Canva, those will have Firefly, those will be Mid Journey. In turn, it will be easy for many clients to be able to manage things consistently, consistently themselves.

[00:23:58] A lot of the things that agencies have [00:24:00] done in the past have been the guardians of the brand. How do you think that's going to change? And how do you think agencies will need to evolve both in terms of the services they offer and the business models around which are built? Because we know we're often based on outputs rather than outcomes or inputs rather than outcomes and 

[00:24:19] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Yeah, I, I think you need for, for the business models, you should get Suzanne Powers in the, in the podcast. Um, you, you remember her, who was the chief strategy officer. We had this whole conversation about this topic, um, which is probably the most important one for, for the agency vault, um, moving away from the FTE business, right?

[00:24:38] This is, um, and I think there's an interesting one because, um, my, um, Um, there's a great slide, I think board of innovation showed that, AI can do things and generate things in, in seconds, right? And minutes maybe, while people can do things in, in, in hours and days, organizational changes happening over years, usually [00:25:00] months, maybe, but usually years.

[00:25:01] So there's a big discrepancy on, on that whole topic. But to answer your question, I think, I think the, the. The trap that we can all tap into is that everything is at the moment built on one, or not on one, but on a limited number of large language models. They kind of work in the same way though. I call them all the, the generation.

[00:25:24] Yes. Were we all in now? And it's not the generation. Why it's, it's the generation. Yes. Yes. Saying, um, yes, man. Um, because these machines just want to, these models just want to please you and they want to give you an answer. And if you, if you train them on your brand identity, they will answer correctly on your brand identity, but they answer always in the same way.

[00:25:47] No matter what brand you are. The underlying core idea will be the same if you're, if you're not pushing further enough. So I think if you ask me about the roles of creativity and creative agencies, I think [00:26:00] that's, that's becoming fundamentally more important than ever. in the world of AI, I, we have a whole course at Pratt that is called the human AI relationship.

[00:26:10] And one of the things we're teaching about there is, The whole notion of, thinking methods and how to think differently. So we talk a lot about moving from design thinking to thinking design, right? And that notion of having different methods. So I think creativity and creative agencies, we will probably see more of them.

[00:26:33] And I actually could see more, more independent jobs actually being super creative while the bigger organizations are moving in a. In a different model, in a different system, I think you see at the moment the big push in media. think they're kind of going back a little bit to the old days. Um, and trying to figure this out.

[00:26:52] So I, I'm not in a place to, um, have an opinion about this. Even if I saw IPG from the [00:27:00] inside, Omnicom from the inside, I think it's, it's going to be, um, yeah, it's going to be a lot of change coming in, in, for the agency world. Um, and I think a lot of this will be positive and a lot of this will probably get us more back to the core of what agencies are creativity and being smart and intelligent about things.

[00:27:19] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: I'm going to jump off a slightly, a bit of a tangent because you used that term, thinking design, moving away from design thinking, given that you are working with students at Pratt, but also probably observing through the workshops you're doing with students. leaders and clients through the AI Academy and probably even people you're seeing within the Coca Cola group.

[00:27:41] the, the need for people to, I'm calling it the AI mind shift, that we have to have this mind shift in the way we think about this technology to other technologies we've worked with in the past. How do you think well, I suppose the question is, presumably critical thinking needs to be [00:28:00] more, baked into the way that we are doing our work, whether it be through students, through the education system, through the way that we're encouraging people to be more critical thinkers and to challenge convention in organizations, for regardless of their roles.

[00:28:16] Because as you say, AI, because of the nature of language models will give you the sort of almost the answer you want. Is, are you seeing that as a challenge to get people, because most, let's face it, the majority of people struggle sometimes with both creativity, tapping into the curiosity and thinking beyond the, the, the, the way we're conditioned through our education system.

[00:28:38] Is that something you see as a, a challenge for organizations, a challenge for our educators?

[00:28:43] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Yes, definitely. I mean, just sharing my own observations and my very personal opinion on this is, I think we will see a fundamental shift in, in [00:29:00] organizations on talent. And I think you, if you are good in following orders and do your job, I By the paper, by the books, then there is a role for people doing that in some areas.

[00:29:17] no doubt, but I think we will see in a lot of areas that people who are curious minded, who thinking out of the box, who have learned critical thinking, have learned to apply thinking methods in their, in their work, and really skilled and really smart about their area of profession. Will accelerate in a in a completely different way than before and the others will fall behind and I think it will be it will be really tough for people to keep up if you're not In a specific area.

[00:29:51] You're really good at but I think this also opens the opportunity to create new areas of jobs a new new [00:30:00] Probably businesses. We haven't thought about because these people I think a lot of people have not found their right. Um

[00:30:07] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Hmm.

[00:30:08] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Profession yet and they kind of followed a profession they have because it makes money But I think that they will open things in a different way and to answer your question about education, I think On one part because we get to the prat from faculty a lot as a question.

[00:30:23] What should we teach? It's like no you you need to keep teaching Compositions and design and the craft of design you need to do this because people need to understand it So can so they can judge and push the machines To, to create something that is better. And I think some of the things don't need to change other things.

[00:30:42] Like, do I need really need to learn all the history, in history class, or do I need to understand why history happened and why things in history happened? So I think this is the shift we will see. It's more about the why and less about the what.

[00:30:57] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: What? That's really interesting. [00:31:00] That's fascinating. Um, two things I went to an event last week at Reddit, um, headquarters. It was on the future of marketing in a world of AI and a really interesting panel. and the question they were asked is, what will the future mean? Will it be the generalists that survive, or will it be the specialists? And the panel was completely 

[00:31:23] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Hmm. 

[00:31:25] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: And one person said, it'll be, a specialist in generalism. Now, I don't know what the answer is, but it's an interesting thing as you start to think about it, in terms of the way you're talking about how people's roles will 

[00:31:38] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Hmm. 

[00:31:40] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: I just, I'm not necessarily looking for an answer, I just thought I'd put it out there, something maybe to sort of, uh, to ruminate on as you're, uh, over the next few months.

[00:31:48] Maybe we can follow up on that 

[00:31:49] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: yeah, we should, I think my, my immediate reaction to this is, and it's so funny, I think we're trying to put people in boxes, we love to do that. And, um, [00:32:00] I think we will experience that it is not that easy to put people in boxes anymore. So are you a specialist or a generalist is maybe it is maybe a bit of both.

[00:32:10] Right. 

[00:32:12] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Well, that's what this woman said,

[00:32:13] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: so it's a, it's a great question, actually. Um, Yeah,

[00:32:23] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: the other thought that came to mind. I wrote something back in 2017, it was a thing on, I think it was a Huffington Post called the future of getting lost. And my view was it was based on Darwin's thinking path when he used to go away and just think because he was walked and that as technology makes everything speed up, and this was obviously before AI and does so much for you, the future of innovation.

[00:32:48] It comes from our imagination, unlocking our imagination. The way we unlock our imagination is to shut our brains off and let our minds wander our own mental thinking paths or whatever. [00:33:00] And given that you had this vigorous imagination as a child, is that something you think we'll have to nurture in people is to get them to almost, Um, step back from AI, because at the same time, AI can do so much for us, and it's almost we must remove ourselves to unlock our imaginations, to think things that it will never be able to come up with.

[00:33:23] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: I think, I mean, in general, that's probably a true statement. As I said before, we over index on the AI at the moment. And I think what we really should do is over index on the human piece of the puzzle. And the reason for that is if, if we, if we talk about an agentic AI world, then we have probably agents around us.

[00:33:46] They shadow us and they do things for us, but we, we human, we are thinking very linear as humans. So for us, the, if you talk to people in the marketing industry, they immediately think, Oh, cool. Then I [00:34:00] need to design the conversation between me and the agent is like, no, that's not what it is. The agent will know what you want on.

[00:34:06] And we'll make a decision on your behalf. And most of the people look at me like, um, but I don't want this. Yeah, but it will be so valuable that you want that. And just watch how many people use chat GPT and no questions ask about security and data privacy. And while companies bring it up rightfully, and I think it's an important topic to talk about, you can actually observe how quickly humans are actually.

[00:34:34] They're doing things because it has a benefit to their life, a fundamental benefit to their work. And they're willingly to ignore some of the warning signs, right? And I think that fascinates me because we, we talk about the technology, but we should actually talk about the human behavior on that in that instance.

[00:34:53] And so for me, I think if you, if you look in a world that [00:35:00] is maybe all. Where AI is around us and makes decisions for us, the question is, how do we live in that world, right? And what we are doing. And there's my romantic perspective is like, we have more of these conversations, Mark, and have time to do this, while emails coming in and will be replied to automatically and correctly.

[00:35:17] There will be probably no emails anymore. And I think we, we haven't really grasped what, where this is going because we're thinking very linear as humans in general. And I think, um, it's going to be fascinating to see how the linear thinking in a removed technology world will work and not removed, but having it in the backend and how, um, This whole world of system thinking, I count myself more as a systems thinker, um, will actually evolve again.

[00:35:48] And for me, one of the big topics is going into space. Um, I think that's going to be the next decade, which will be fundamentally driving humanity, [00:36:00] quantum computing, certainly as well, if we get to that point soon enough. but, you know, The AI part will, it will be, just be a part of our life very, very naturally.

[00:36:11] And then I think the sooner we start and the sooner brands start to think about this, what that means, um, the better it is.

[00:36:18] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: So what's your advice, Wendy? You're dealing with people in Pratt who have probably got ambitions in design, creativity. Design thinking, thinking design, systems thinking, and you're dealing with probably a lot of people in the in the creative domain in the work you do. What's your advice to them about how they should prepare for this fast approaching and very rapidly changing future?

[00:36:42] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: I think one of the things we do is an exercise with everybody. And I think it's a good one is we have a canvas we use. We have several canvases, but I think we have one for prompt design. Where we say, uh, we print this out usually in class [00:37:00] and have people writing it down on a piece of paper or on a mirror board.

[00:37:05] And the reaction in any workshop we're giving is, well, I thought we talk about AI and we learn how to use ChatGPT. And it's like, yeah, you learn how to use ChatGPT. You learn the fundamental basics of communication and thinking. Because a ChatGPT course you can have online for. 200 bucks probably or for free from anybody and that will not get you anywhere because if you don't learn how to communicate, if you don't learn how to think, you will not accomplish what you want to accomplish.

[00:37:36] I had a conversation with a friend yesterday who said, um, I don't think it can help me with strategic foresight. And I said, well, have, what kind of version do you use? GPT 3. 5. And I'm like, well, that, that the problem is that The way you use it and you're trying to use it will not get you there, I agree, because it, it doesn't, it doesn't have the [00:38:00] advanced reasoning.

[00:38:01] But if you go on, on an oval, on one preview and you ask the right questions and you have the right dialogue with it, then you probably will be surprised what it spits out because it will be completely different. And I think that's the, if you use Lama, which is unmoderated, which has its dangers on its own.

[00:38:18] But if you use it, it's kind of impressive what these things can do and, and, and help you with. So if you learn how to think, if you learn how to communicate, you, you can get outputs. I think humans cannot imagine yet. And I think that will change our world from fundamentally how we see it, how the businesses that will pop up.

[00:38:36] Same with the digital area, right? It's like it. It transformed everything, everything we do. And Amazon wouldn't exist without this digital transformation and this, the internet. So you can only imagine what is probably coming next in, in the world of AI.

[00:38:52] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: If we look at the imperative we have to evolve as human beings to keep up with [00:39:00] this technology, our education system, our kids have to be part of that.

[00:39:06] What's your hope or your view that of how The slow, probably one of the slowest moving organizations on the planet with American education. So maybe the British ones behind it, but, um, how are they going to deal with this rapidly changing world?

[00:39:21] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Yeah, it's a good question. I mean, everything I see in education at the moment happening is that there's a lot of curiosity and there's a lot of teachers who actually understanding that it has an implication on it. I think the human nature is how to cheat, right? Or how to be faster about things, because that's how we, since the Neanderthals are being wired, because that's how our brain, brain food system works.

[00:39:48] I need food to have energy. So our brain is wired to consume as, or to burn as less energy as possible in order to be, um, to save it. [00:40:00] Um, so I think the question is how do you. How do you actually in, in education foster that? I, I think there we both see things that are fundamentally changed the job of a, of an, of a teacher becoming a coach and having AI being a part of the, of the, of the teaching itself.

[00:40:19] So just imagine you have a class of 20, 30 people, uh, kids, it's getting bigger and bigger. Um, it's really hard to take care of them. So how do you. How do you help them? And I think AI will be fundamentally important in that because it will have the same content that is being shared with the kids, but at the same time, it will ask them and help them learn in their speed, in the depth of, um, of knowledge they need.

[00:40:47] Um, and they are capable of, um, progressing through and that allows teachers to go in and say, okay, this, this kid is really advanced. This kid needs help. I focus on this kid and I coach this kid. Right. And suddenly [00:41:00] if a completely, I hear there's a school in Switzerland, in Luzern, I think that has three teachers for each class and they're rotating and they can do that because they have a system that allows the kids to actually do everything they learn on the computer and the teachers come in as coaches and then as mentors.

[00:41:21] And I think that's a really interesting system. And this is just one glimpse of an example, how this system works. AI infrastructure will probably change education for good.

[00:41:30] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Yeah. Also, the point you made about history, starting to ask why not what, because I can imagine if I'd been given the conversation, I'd find the conversation with my history teacher, why and not what happened at the beginning. Battle of Bannockburn between Scotland and England, or why did Henry VIII take the head off Anne Boleyn?

[00:41:49] You know, it's a very different conversation to what happened. Um, I think that will be fascinating to evolve, if we start to get our educators to make that simple [00:42:00] pivot, that could be really interesting. I'm conscious of time, so I want to get forward to personal questions. Um, what do you think is going to happen, or when do you think, first of all, when do you think we'll reach AGI, and Um, what will happen then?

[00:42:15] How will it impact us?

[00:42:17] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Good. The first question, um, is very simple to answer. I think I would, I would not believe anything that you see and read at the moment online. Will it feel like AGI? Some would say it already does. Others would probably say next year, in the next two years. None of these machines are artificially intelligent.

[00:42:38] That's a fact, right? It's like There are advanced algorithms to make mathematic, mathematical predictions based on what you're putting in. So the more you put in, the better is what is coming back. That will become better. It will have a memory function. I think ggpd has it already. I think Claude as well. So it [00:43:00] feels like it's understanding you, but it doesn't. Right. And so, um, the truth. As far as I understand it and know it is that AGI is at least 10 years away, if not more. it probably will not be accomplished before we have, first of all, quantum computing, because we don't have simply the computing power to do it.

[00:43:21] And the transformer models will have a big end. Um, they have limits. I think most of the people haven't understood that yet. This is not an endless infrastructure that infrastructure will be limited and there will be probably impossible to reach a AGI on to AGI And then I think that The last part of the bit is, which I think is, is really interesting and is forgotten about or not talked enough about is, these machines need constant data input.

[00:43:51] If they don't have it, they can't evolve and they will not evolve. So one way of doing it is synthetic data, but how do you build the [00:44:00] synthetic data constantly? Um, so I think there's a couple of things in that, that have, uh, have limitations. And again, I think this, um, the, the question is not AGI. The question is how do we use it in a way that is beneficial for us and makes our life, um, maybe less technological in terms of talking about it.

[00:44:20] And more human is probably the big question. I think where we, where we should emphasize on we're over indexing again of AI, AGI. I think that's not the, that's not the question to ask.

[00:44:33] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Let's table that, uh, uh, delay that, uh, answer till we maybe get you and Tony around a table to

[00:44:39] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Oh, that's going to be fascinating because opposite opinions.

[00:44:43] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Okay, we'll come back to that one. Do a bit more time. Um, personal questions. What principles do you live by?

[00:44:50] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Hard work for a German. Um, trying, that's my biggest principle. I try that every day. [00:45:00] Um, it doesn't work. It's super hard. But I think it's the most important principle. I think the, the second one for me is being, being empathetic and human, right? And understand that the person in front of you has a reaction, not because it doesn't, the person doesn't like you.

[00:45:19] It doesn't, they have all their own. The old challenges and so understanding them and Emphasizing them in a positive way and being empathetic about it and Understanding that your problems are not solely your problems it's like everybody is is in their own head and so helping them getting out of their head and being One person once said to me, um, you're the AI guru.

[00:45:45] And my first reaction was like, yeah, I'm the AI guru. And then my second reaction was like, why, why did this person say that to me? And I realized that it can be intimidating. Um, if you have somebody in front of you with a big CV, [00:46:00] but I don't see it that way, but this person doesn't know that. Right. So my, my reaction and I'm, um.

[00:46:06] Um, I was, I'm, I'm super proud of myself in that moment that I kind of reacted in that way and said that there's no such thing than a guru. I think we are all in the same boat and trying to figure things out and turned out to be probably the best answer I ever gave because we became really, close collaborators and, and doing a lot of things, a lot of work together.

[00:46:27] and there's no. There's a lot of respect for each other because everybody brings something to the table. And I think having more of this in the world would be, that's exactly my point about let's talk less about AI. Let's talk more about how, how to understand each other. and, and, and accepting the fact that we are, we're not the only ones who have problems with ourselves or challenges to overcome, um, the person in front of you has the same.

[00:46:56] And so how can you. Step forward and help the other [00:47:00] person is sometimes more, more valuable and more helpful and more successful in anything than anything else. Having a billboard or a campaign coming out. Who cares? At the end of the day.

[00:47:11] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Good answer. who inspires you? Or what inspires you?

[00:47:15] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: As a kid, Ayrton Senna. I admired him for his, um, Precision and, and. Really, I think he, he was the best in driving the moments. He was just, he said that once he's like, I'm in the zone. I don't think I just do. I think that's, that's a very inspiring thing that goes back to what I just said is like being in the zone and just go with the flow

[00:47:45] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: And it's a great documentary.

[00:47:48] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: is fantastic. Yeah.

[00:47:51] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Um, we're all human. We all have to deal with our uncertainty, our fears, our doubts. How do you [00:48:00] manage those?

[00:48:01] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Sometimes crying. Um, Um, I have different techniques. Um, I learned from Stala a technique that I use not often enough, but I can only, um, share with everybody else works well for me, which is I write, uh, every night, three things down. I'm proud of myself. And I, Mark, I tell you, this is really hard because I'm very, very judgmental about myself, um, but it, it, if it's even the smallest thing, uh, and you write it down, it kind of creates a mindset of positivity and appreciation of yourself. 

[00:48:40] I don't think you, you need to, um, it's always about yourself. It's more about how do you, um, show up to others and, and. Fear is something you have because you are not, you're not proud of yourself or you're, you, you are not, you think, you know, admitting that you do [00:49:00] some not know something or that makes you weak and I think that's a little bit how society is wired and there was probably two or three things today when when I said to you I don't know or I have never heard of it right and that is but that is what drives curiosity because you shared so many new things today with me and I was like I will go away out of this meeting and of this podcast and say wow I learned so much from Mark and and so don't be fearful be Be human and accept that we're all the same.

[00:49:29] We're all struggling with the same thing. There's a great book about the subtle art of giving a f And oh, yeah, we're among our europeans we can speak it out loud, right and

[00:49:41] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Yeah, we can. Yeah.

[00:49:42] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: It's like give a fuck um and and I think one one part in the book is like If you think you're the only person who has a problem has this problem.

[00:49:51] You're pretty stupid because you're not Then you haven't understood how the world works and something along the lines, which I I really emphasize I really [00:50:00] resonated with me in a such a way where I was like, oh Yeah. Oh my god. Yes true. This person probably suffers the same things and it's funny because if you work with people You don't see it.

[00:50:12] You think they're all so strong and they don't have it. But if you then end up going with some people to an award show in in Vegas and you speak with them for the first time really speak with them you learn actually they have their own fears and their own um challenges and actually that that makes you understand that it is sometimes a bad reaction you had in the past and you should have reacted differently and I think that's that's that's for me the how I deal with fear but I also have the these moments where I'm I wish I would I would like to sit on the under my desk and hide and Maybe cry, but just hide.

[00:50:51] No, I'm so visible that I'm sometimes wish I would be invisible for a moment, but then That's just because I heard from one person [00:51:00] one thing that they didn't like and instead of Accepting it and saying Maybe I should change it or accepting this person It's not about you, it's about their own fear, right?

[00:51:12] And, and you trick at something in them is sometimes the, the thing to go about it. And then that, that helps me a lot personally on, on manage my fears.

[00:51:20] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: A couple of more questions. Um, what book would you like us to recommend?

[00:51:24] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Book, um, 24, 2041. It's a good one.

[00:51:30] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Okay. Yeah.

[00:51:31] Okay. 

[00:51:32] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Cut carefully and mark. This is perfect on topic. Like we planned this. It's like carefully um Made a book with uh quinn quiff on and one is a science fiction author and one is an ai expert and they basically write about In a science fictional way what the future looks like and then the other one basically explains what the technology will come to so Can only recommend this one

[00:51:58] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Excellent. [00:52:00] Okay then. uh, I said this to Tony, um, I haven't made the connection yet, but we're all about, um, reciprocity. So if you're open, I'll be connecting you with a couple of people that I think there would be benefit from each of you knowing each

[00:52:12] other. love that. That's perfect. I think more networking, more human connections. Let's do that. Let's, let's get less digital.

[00:52:20] And the final question. is who do I interview next?

[00:52:24] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Susan Powers. I had such a great conversation with her. I would, I would go with her.

[00:52:29] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: All right. Well, when, uh, when this goes live, I always wait until the episode goes live and then ask the person to make the connection. So if you could, uh, do an email connection, um, and then we'll take it from 

[00:52:41] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Wonderful. Yeah. happy 

[00:52:43] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Well, 

[00:52:43] thank thank you very much. I could have spent a couple of hours talking to you and I'm going deeper with this conversation, but maybe we'll have to do a follow

[00:52:51] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: Yeah. I'm glad we, we time box it to an hour. Um, I could have gone longer with you. I like talking about the topic, but I'm, I'm glad because I looked at [00:53:00] Tony's and I was like, dude, you spoke to Mark. So I think we, we give the listeners a time and otherwise just reach out to me and ask me questions, everybody else, um, hit me up, um, it's very simple.

[00:53:13] Dominic at creative dash AI dot academy. So always send me an email. I'm always happy. I get so many spam emails already that doesn't matter to share that

[00:53:22] mark-f_1_11-01-2024_140301: Well, I'll put your, I'll put your, details and social links in the show notes. So, but that's great. So I really appreciate your time. And, uh, um, yeah, and you've certainly given me food for thought, um,

[00:53:34] dom-heinrich_1_11-01-2024_140123: You too, Mark. I, I really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much, Mark. 

[00:53:39] Mark: Okay, that's all for now, folks. Now here's my ask of you. Please follow this podcast on Apple or Spotify or whatever player you use. Also, please subscribe to our new random Collisions newsletter. We really are working to build a global community of action takers, action engines of people that really care about the problems that need solving.

[00:53:58] Thank you very much. [00:54:00] We'll see you next time.