Julia Black Follow Up
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[00:00:00] External Microphone & FaceTime HD Camera: After a few weeks break due to work and travel. I'm releasing this follow-up conversation with Julia Black, a former TV producer turned turned education innovator, where we discuss her groundbreaking lights on framework and recently published book lights on learning. a parent's blueprint for happy, fulfilled, curious kids, something I'm sure a lot of you will be interested in. 

[00:00:22] if you miss Julia's previous guest appearance, her lights on framework. Re-imagine education. By focusing on internal learning processes. 

[00:00:30] Um, parental involvement. The approach treats disengagement, not as a problem, but as an opportunity for growth. The frameworks effectiveness. Is based on identifying a learner's unique engagement catalyst that can actually unlock their true potential. In this episode, Julia shares, examples of such transformation And how our six different learning signatures, help parents and teachers work with various learning states. To create a fundamental shift in how we approach education, making it more accessible to all [00:01:00] parents. We also discuss AI. 

[00:01:03] As AI becomes more prevalent. 

[00:01:04] Julie sees her lights on approach is crucial for developing human creativity and problem solving skills. Something. I definitely agree with. With an upcoming audio book, a new collaborative projects. 

[00:01:16] She's building a community that prioritizes nurturing, curious, fulfilled learners over traditional success metrics. Now over to Julia. 

[00:01:25] Mark: are you? It's been a long time.

[00:01:27] julia@explorium.co.uk: It has been a long time. Yes. Yeah, I'm

[00:01:31] Mark: and you've been really busy, haven't you?

[00:01:34] julia@explorium.co.uk: I have been busy.

[00:01:37] Mark: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You've published your book.

[00:01:40] julia@explorium.co.uk: feels really good to have everything really simple, like my body of work, just kind of really accessible, hopefully in one place. um, yeah, I'm very excited.

[00:01:52] Mark: Tell all. So for the last time we spoke, and people might not have heard your episode, you [00:02:00] had a transition career from sort of TV production into really leading the charge into creating a new way of life. Yeah. to create fulfilled, curious, empowered children and parents. And you were really sort of trying to I suppose, craft a new path in education, changing and arguably disrupt the old way.

[00:02:21] that we think about, teaching children, empowering them, bringing out their natural sort of creativity and curiosity, and questioning the old norms of the, the education system. Perhaps you just give a little bit of an abridged journey from where we were back then, which was now about three, three and a half years ago.

[00:02:40] When we spoke, um, to where you are now and the publishing of the book and your, maybe your, your hopes of where the, the impact that's going to have, particularly on the education secretary in the UK.

[00:02:51] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yes, exactly. Yeah, I mean, I guess I think in terms of there's the old school paradigm, which is very outside in focused [00:03:00] and kind of really, you know, I guess measures outcomes, measures the behavior and focuses in on what we can necessarily see. And my approach called Lights On is all about really going to the internal learning landscape learning from the inside out and kind of going back to, you know, how we act and behave and show up in the world is, you know, we can go back downstream of that to what we're thinking and what we're feeling at any particular time. and, you know, Back in 2016, I, I kind of really

[00:03:32] uh, Um, Uh, Uh, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um, Um,

[00:03:48] that Um, [00:04:00] Yeah. I'm.

[00:04:07] kind of a, Okay. Okay.

[00:04:32] potential, in neuroscience, in education, pedagogy, and all of that, but really making it very simple. So you don't, it's almost like you don't have to be a professional now To get your children engaging. And in fact, I often think it's far better if you're not because then you haven't got any old school thinking to unpick. Um, and I do believe parents, the role of parents

[00:04:54] [00:05:00] Hello. Hello.

[00:05:16] Yeah, and I think I'm really excited about the potential to change the conversation at a policy level and things like that, because I just think we're stuck. I think it's an old school narrative and, we really don't need to be.

[00:05:28] Mark: So for people that aren't aware of the, um, Of the framework that you're proposing, I mean, how would they go about sort of starting to, well, they obviously read the book, join your community, but could you just give us an outline of the, of what that new paradigm is in terms of how a parent would actually sort of embrace it and the impact it would have in terms of the way that the child learns?

[00:05:53] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yeah. So it's, it's really, um, about, um, Increasing your self [00:06:00] awareness and that's where it starts and, and it's also as a parent realizing that you are the biggest role model and also to think as a leader of your family. So often we get caught into parenting strategies that are, you know, solutions to manage your child's behavior or to get them into school. And so those kind of strategies, um, and I just think those are like putting a band aid on something, actually. It's about looking at who we're being and the kind of thinking that we're having as parents or educators, um, or even

[00:06:30] When we really get down to it, or when I lead parents to the sort of the worst case scenario, it ultimately comes down to that they think they're doing a bad job, they feel guilty, a sense of failure, which is the thinking that would lead them to be leading from a lights off place. So it's having that awareness, really, of What are we making our children's or our students disengagement mean? And I think the exciting place that I've arrived is that [00:07:00] actually I do not see disengagement as a problem at all. I see it as an opportunity for growth. it's the biggest signal that we could have that, um, something needs to shift, and rather than that be like the curriculum needs to shift, or we need more funding, or this needs to change, or that needs to change, where I've got

[00:07:18] school every day, not being able to read or write or do the maths.

[00:07:46] [00:08:00] I just do not believe exist. and when we shift to thinking about them as an opportunity, it's just like, okay, well, clearly with that thinking that you're rubbish and your brain doesn't work and that you will never be able to write, you are going to feel, you and see it as a behavioral problem, we're in judgment, we chastise and punish, and we have [00:09:00] solutions and strategies that, quite frankly, are inhumane. and should not still be being practiced with everything we know about human technology and, and I guess that moves us into compassion. And it's very powerful when I do the work with, with teachers, because suddenly their whole lens that they're looking through shifts, and, um,

[00:09:49] now it's the focus is all about helping that child feel safe to be able to learn. And I think that's really important. And so there's such a seismic shift in the strategies that we can [00:10:00] use when we look through the lights on, lights off lens. Does that make sense?

[00:10:04] Mark: So if you're going to. Yeah, yeah, it does. I mean, I'd love to personalize and hear actual stories. Do you have any that you could recount of the impact you've had on either children or their parents, or even the teachers?

[00:10:18] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yeah, I mean, there's so many. And again, lots of them in my book. But yes, the one I'm going to share, I think, is is Bryony. I kind of share her story in the last chapter of my book, and I'm going to share it because it's it's about the mum making the shift that the of the school. and she was six years old.

[00:10:41] So Bryony was six years old and she was starting to want to not go to school. So she was starting to have summer aches, you know, finding all those excuses to not go in, delay going in and all of this, then, um, lockdown happened, um, and her

[00:10:55] Mark: What is the um, the sign [00:11:00] it says so let's go back and we'll start. We're going to start with the beach. And we'll start with the beach. And one more time, we'll start with the beach. We'll start with the beach.

[00:11:20] julia@explorium.co.uk: at writing. She felt she couldn't do it. She was beginning

[00:11:24] Mark: So, So, So, So,

[00:11:42] julia@explorium.co.uk: going down the route of, okay, this is a problem of anxiety, and we better go and sort that out.

[00:11:48] no, this is a problem of self belief. And, um, and a child, a six year old, who believes she's rubbish at the things she has to do every day when she goes into school.

[00:11:57] So of course she's going to feel anxious. [00:12:00] So then where we always start is like, well, what makes you feel

[00:12:03] Mark: You

[00:12:16] julia@explorium.co.uk: without HeartSet activated. It's just too heavy. It's heavy lifting and it can be more damaging than it needs to be. So we found out, or, um, Nicky, Barani's mum, found out what, um, know, Briony really loved to do it. She loved learning about dinosaurs and space and she loved absorbing the knowledge and reading the books and then kind of telling it and sharing the knowledge with her, with her younger brother. And, um, and so we just let her hang out there for a bit. And then I coached Nikki to really begin to see Bryony as a learner, because this was during lockdown, so she was at home and Nikki was obviously working from home. And just to pick up on the subtleness, subtle details of when we're [00:13:00] seeing a child in their brilliance. Um, and so it was really beautiful because, you know, Bryony started playing with the dinosaurs and at one point she had these hula hoops that she put as a Venn diagram and she was sorting the dinosaurs into the different spaces of the overlapping hula hoops. But then when we kind of knew that it was time to start going back to school, we wanted to tackle the anxiety around writing.

[00:13:24] And so, again, I always just ask very simply, would you like to learn to write or feel better about writing? And inevitably, the answer is always yes. and, um, then it was a question of at school, I wanted to know what do they normally do? And it was normally writing for like 10 minutes.

[00:13:43] [00:14:00] Okay.

[00:14:05] no time limit or 10 minutes and see how many words you can write.

[00:14:09] And so she chose to write 10 words and it was amazing. Again, Nikki coached her through it. She see the anxiety kicking in, you know, all the fidgeting and all of

[00:14:21] Silence. once it got to 10, you get that post struggle success. You did it.

[00:14:39] Yeah. Um, and then it was just really, really powerful because she had got evidence now that she could go through that lights off experience and out the other side. And she's only six

[00:14:55] Um, [00:15:00] very much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:46] You know, less than six months later, she was writing like that. So

[00:15:52] you know, very, very sort of hip from anxiety about writing to very typical six year old handwriting, to like [00:16:00] massive, massive progress in a short space of time, all led by her mother, which I think is really exciting, being able to hold a space for her to

[00:16:10] Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence. Silence.

[00:16:28] from the impossible to the

[00:16:30] Silence. It's incredible to think that a child of six years old has anxiety. When you think, you know, a child, everything should be infinite and it's all about opportunity and imagination and feeling that sense, as you say, lights off and just locked down a sense of like, [00:17:00] almost lacking self belief at that age.

[00:17:03] It's terrible. And there must be so many

[00:17:07] is children like that.

[00:17:08] yeah. And I think I had the, I talk about this in the book saying like the mistake I made thinking that lights off was a problem for so many years and that we wanted to get the lights on, but actually it's just a normal part of being human. Like we, we play in the realm of fear and love all the time, right?

[00:17:25] We need, if we are to love life and love who we are and, and really love learning. need fear

[00:17:31] Um,

[00:17:57] with a learner, whether they're a child, teenager or [00:18:00] adult, beyond, I was trying to lead someone beyond their comfort zone, so that I can them to that point of just outside what they're comfortable of achieving. Um, so, I think the problem comes when we We panic ourselves and we lock in that light soft state rather than see it as a fluid and dynamic momentary shift in thinking and in feeling and needing to sort of regulate back to feeling more aligned really or harmonized.

[00:18:35] Mark: So, in terms of, getting the book published is an amazing step forward, but where are you at in terms of empowering people to embrace it as a, I suppose, as a framework and methodology? Because I suppose a lot of parents, one, if they're not aware of the lights on, lights off approach, when they do learn about it, then presumably they're also at a stage [00:19:00] going, well, how on earth do I, as a parent, embrace this and apply it, if they don't understand how to?

[00:19:06] What steps do they have to go through to become accomplished and able to guide their child and work with their child to help them in that fluid state? Okay, going to go ahead and start the video and I'm going to start the recording. Okay, so let's just start the recording. Okay, so I'm going to go recording.

[00:19:36] julia@explorium.co.uk: clear, obviously the binary is sort of headline data just makes it easy for us to kind of gauge, but actually we're more sophisticated than that.

[00:19:43] And so my lights on spectrum is like six different signatures, and I really think of it as an awareness and calibration tool, and, I show, detail that within the book and kind of guide parents how to use it. The first step. The biggest [00:20:00] obstacle is really about parents. feeling courageous enough know that if they want their children to fulfill on their potential, they have to learn how to do that for themselves. And you tend to get some parents who are just like, bring it on. Oh my goodness. I can use my child's disengagement or the old school paradigm for my own personal and professional growth.

[00:20:24] Yes, please. You have some parents who are then like, full of doubt because it's like, well, I'd never have felt fulfilled as so many of, you know, adults have not, um, what if I can't, or

[00:20:37] Okay. Nope. [00:21:00] Nope.

[00:21:07] to, to love myself, to love being me, to know that I am fully using my true capabilities a new paradigm, which is one where there's ease and flow, not in a must push at all costs. And have success because

[00:21:23] Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Um, Okay. Yeah. Um, [00:22:00] Um, 

[00:22:00] in my family, my Children can entrain to that. If I meet them down where they are, when they are lights off now,

[00:22:09] Mm hmm. Okay.

[00:22:32] All it requires really is a commitment to an active role in unlocking your children's potential and letting go of the old school narrative that, um, the system is broken.

[00:22:44] Mark: And what about teachers? What traction are you getting with teachers?

[00:22:49] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yeah, I'm beginning to have conversations. I mean, I used to work with schools. I've worked with 15 schools when I had my center and I had a center on a school site. and I love working with teachers and the same [00:23:00] thing applies. There's some, I've talked at a conference with head teachers and And the feedback was some of them were like, Oh my goodness, I love this.

[00:23:08] And others were like, Oh, she's totally naive. This is ridiculous. again, you know, I'm learning as a change maker. I'm not here to convince anyone. I'm here to invite people who are ready to, to into a new paradigm. And so the teachers, I'm talking with three heads of, groups of schools. So trust at the moment. And. The role, I guess, I feel Lights on Learning can play is that it's not about a

[00:23:33] Transcript. Okay.

[00:23:50] This is not about getting kids up three sub levels, you know, in the grading system. This is about switching on a whole school community to, fulfill [00:24:00] and

[00:24:00] I'm going to do the on the other side, so I'm going to do the same thing on the other side.

[00:24:22] who are courageous, who do not buy into the story that their hands are tied and they can't do it. They find the way to make their vision happen. And I'm excited about my

[00:24:36] Silence. Silence. Silence. [00:25:00] Silence.

[00:25:03] so yeah, and I know also really excited to be, I'm being introduced to more people within the special educational needs. You know, and again, the shift in a lens about what, what solutions are for special children with special educational needs, which isn't really a label that I like to use, but it's there, I think also is, is really, really huge. And just a story, because I know you love stories on that front, is Ollie, who I

[00:25:28] Um, Um, of a special educational needs intervention like, [00:26:00] seven years or more. so within minutes, I knew where his heart set was, if we could activate that. I call it their switch. within 12 hours, completely transformed as a learner. And that year, his best academic report ever. The teachers noticed a difference in the classroom, the head teacher, you know, we talked about it. And And just said, Ollie found a way to come into school and be Ollie that for me is the transformational shifts we're talking about.

[00:26:31] They can happen really fast. and we're talking 12 hours as opposed to 10, 000 hours. That was ineffective. Um, yeah. switch

[00:26:42] What

[00:26:44] It was, yeah, it was, um, he

[00:26:46] visual storyteller and, and, and, um, so I had, I have this tool called the learning carousel, which again, you know, is outlined in the books, so parents can use it, but I set up various tinkering stations and I, and I observe [00:27:00] children and see what do they like to go to. I had this animation station set up. Really simple little Lego, uh, Lego figure on the ground of an astronaut and a, and a, a drawing of a globe, the world, and children would just come in and do a little bit of, you know, an iPad set up looking down on it, children would come in and do animations, and Ollie came in and did it, and immediately I could see like, okay. Here's

[00:27:27] Um, even with how he framed, framed it. and so, yeah, we just. I mean, simple. This is not rocket science, which is what's really exciting. Ordinary parents can find their children's switches, them on, and then activate their

[00:27:59] [00:28:00] It just,

[00:28:12] he said, Finally, I have something I'm proud of.

[00:28:17] Mark: it's amazing and inspiring that you can actually transform someone's perception of themselves in such a short amount of time.

[00:28:29] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yeah. Really short. I mean, that's, that's why it's so powerful. Lights on, lights on, off, lights on, lights off. It's, it is like a flick of a switch. If you know what you're looking for, which, for some reason, one of my natural abilities. I, I, I kind of feel like somehow have ability to find someone's really fast. but that's what I want to share it in the book is just like I've developed the tools and techniques so that anyone could do that. and I think the [00:29:00] beauty of the community, you don't need the community, but if you wanted to have the support of parents around you who been through it is you see ordinary parents. Ordinary parents who were lights off, transformed and needing their children who were also lights off at such a different level. And so I think that, for me, I think increasingly the power of community, the power of ordinary people achieving something

[00:29:26] Silence. Silence. 

[00:29:50] because there's now too much for them to lose. ordinary people, like, what have we [00:30:00] got to lose, right? We're going to fail. So what? That's, that's learning. And the vision I've got is my kid, you know, happy, fulfilled, curious, and engaged.

[00:30:12] Mark: Well, also, I mean, we're, we're at a point in time, the pace of change is happening with technology and with AI is creating a lot of existential conversations within the education system and with parents as to what's the future like for their children. So unless you're unlocking. That are finding that switch in them, you know, they're, what's the, what's the future hold for kids?

[00:30:37] Because you've got to, I think the only way to empower children and young people for a future where so much of work is going to change and the future and everything around us and the role of these AI agents has to be on, I suppose it's, it's really tapping into the ingenuity and the curiosity and the imagination.

[00:30:58] Action. and create a [00:31:00] potential of people and of children. And I think that's what's amazing about what you're doing is you're finding a route to tap into that for parents and for teachers. Hopefully, hopefully more people will embrace it.

[00:31:15] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yeah, and if we just think of it as creative energy, I think as human beings, our biggest gift is we have creative energy. Um, and if we just think it like as that, and we, um, we either switch it on or we switch it off. And when we switch it off, we plummet really fast. Our mental health suffers massively, massively fast. Um, And, you know, and that's what's at stake here, like if we are not exploring our creative energy, I can't see there will be a place for that human being. In terms of have nothing to bring to the table. We don't need the body count now in a team. Yeah, we, we need the, um, creative, um, the creative thinking, the [00:32:00] problem solving, and the ability to use and harness AI to work for us rather than us. Down the line. Be a slave to it, yeah.

[00:32:12] Mark: have you recorded the audio version of the book yet?

[00:32:16] julia@explorium.co.uk: And that's going to be coming in the new year. So yeah, I'm excited to do that. Little bit daunted about it, but um, yes.

[00:32:23] Mark: reading it yourself?

[00:32:25] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yeah, I think

[00:32:26] Mark: Wow.

[00:32:27] julia@explorium.co.uk: and so yes, I'll definitely be practicing and maybe a good friend of mine. uh, well, Gillian, you know, Gillian, um, Gillian Burke. Um, so,

[00:32:37] Mark: Yeah.

[00:32:37] julia@explorium.co.uk: have to do some voice training with me and stuff like that.

[00:32:41] But yeah, I think I want to, to read it myself. 

[00:32:45] Mark: That'd be excellent. And when are you appearing on If I Rule the World,

[00:32:49] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yes,

[00:32:50] Mark: our podcast that

[00:32:51] julia@explorium.co.uk: Um, yeah.

[00:32:51] Mark: launched?

[00:32:52] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yeah, we're going to, think we're talking on Friday, um, a little exploration around that and then, yeah, setting something [00:33:00] up. but we also have a very exciting, project we're discussing as well, which, um, yeah, definitely would, would definitely want to talk to you about as well, but maybe off, uh, initial conversation

[00:33:14] Excellent. 

[00:33:15] Mark: Well, okay, I'll wrap that up now. It's, uh, great to hear. I'm going to be sharing the book. It's on my, now my Christmas giving list for quite a few people in the UK. So, you'll get a little bump in orders from that. And, um, I'll be sharing it on social media as well. So hopefully people can then, uh, get some good sort of holiday reading in and, uh, have some sort of impact and switch on those, not just the Christmas lights, but the lights of their children.

[00:33:43] julia@explorium.co.uk: Yeah, 

[00:33:46] Mark: Okay, that's all for now, folks. Now here's my ask of you. Please follow this podcast on Apple or Spotify or whatever player you use. Also, please subscribe to our new random Collisions newsletter. We really are working to build a global [00:34:00] community of action takers, action engines of people that really care about the problems that need solving.

[00:34:05] Thank you very much. We'll see you next time.